We're wiping them all out

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Biddlesby said:
Firstly - lol.

Secondly, I agree that many problems as described lie in problems with:
  • Excessive human population
  • "Slack jawed, latte-sucking asphalt pounding yuppies"
Introduce birth controls, kill the yuppies and you're halfway there ;).


lol.... Viva la revolution, Viva la television y Viva El Commandante Biddlesby

Mata los Yuppies lol.
 

Rob

Need to contact Admin...
I think the points made about having too much choice are probably right. But there is very little that can be done without getting into timescales of generations. The message will then need to be continuous, or the next generation will regress into the same oil based, fast food, fast everything economy that we are skirting round the edge of at the moment. I remember the HIV/safe sex campaign of the 80's - then we kind of forgot about drumming it into people when the next "political word of the week" was spun.

I often think about the generations that have come before, and you really dont have to go too far back to see some amazing things to think about when it comes to choice and being able to lead a relatively safe, independant and comfortable life. I spend a lot of time in Somerset, and the head office of the company I do most of my work for is a fantastically interesting place. From the 2000 year old yew on the back lawn, past the fact that it was a big country house built in the 17C to the fact that there is still evidence of the US servicemen who were based there during WW2. All the little bits of evidence that lead you to the bigger picture. I have been working there for nearly 10 years, and I still spot new things each time I spend time there. This year if found the old tie point for the game keeper to prep his deer, and a room full of original bread ovens that I had never been in. My favourite bit of grafitti is where someone who must have been left behind when the rest flew out for D-Day - just a simple name and date, scratched into the limestone blocks that make the building. (sorry - drifted off a bit there). Point is, we have so much freedom now - we dont know what to do with it - other than consume (in most cases). You only have to slip into empathy mode for a while to imagine what choices the guys who have passed through or worked in the house had - compared to yourselves.

Now we have found ourselves with no need to occupy our time with the task of survival, now that we get to put many more years on our clocks before they stop; shouldn't we all try and do something to improve the world we live in? People like Jack will manage an environment, in order to keep it healthy and provide for him and any generation who follow that path. Some of the guys on here spend time getting people outside, and encourage respect for the environment, some volunteer to help on conservation projects. The list of things to do is endless. It doesn't matter what you do, as long as you do something. It does not have to be anything more than a little inconvenient to help out. Personally, i try and eat free range organic - and i have no doubts as to where food comes from. I refuse to buy Coca Cola products, or anything from MacDonalds - I have a choice and I intend to use it. I do not intend to patron any business that has a negative effect on the environment, where possible - and you dont have to go to the Amazon to see it.

There are too many people. Most of them have been brought up as, or aspire to be consumers. You cant blame the man who wants more, because he has just been told by someone else that he has nothing.

In the past, there has always been another species waiting in the wings to take over and have it's chance to thrive. Lets just hope that we dont log the biodiversity out of this place before it is our time to go.
 

R-Bowskill

Forager
Sep 16, 2004
195
0
59
Norwich
All this talk of overpopulation is misleading, it's not about numbers but resources and access to them. For example the two most densely populated countries in the world are both in Europe but the effects of their populations are felt elsewhere. For your information one of them is the Vatican City which has over 1,000 residents in it's 1Km square area. And not a great deal of productive agricultural land to feed them. That goes against the common perception that it is people in other countries having too many children that causes overcrowding and famine as a country of celebate people would have a low birth rate.

The advocates of the 'too many people' argument never seem sufficently convinced of the truth of what they are saying to try to reduce the problem starting with themselves do they?

But the main problem with this kind of story is the use of the word "we". Has teh person who said it checked whether I am wiping anything out? if not then they are saying that I am doing something without establishing the facts. Hardly a good basis for evidence, like when the media says "France says" ...It can't it's just a geographical area on the planet, it hasn't got a mouth and vocal cords so it cannot say anything, what they really mean is "a certain proportion of the population of france says" but that would leave space for alternatives.

AS for the whole Veggie / carnvor / omnivor / vegan debate:
Meat is recycled vegatables and vegatables are recycled dung so neither side wins in the end.
 

FeralSheryl

Nomad
Apr 29, 2005
334
0
62
Gloucestershire
Rob said:
...Point is, we have so much freedom now - we dont know what to do with it - other than consume (in most cases).

...There are too many people. Most of them have been brought up as, or aspire to be consumers. You cant blame the man who wants more, because he has just been told by someone else that he has nothing.

Rob, you make some very interesting points and I agree that it's definitely down to what choices we make. But I think the difficulty lies in becoming aware that we, in so many more subtle ways, are not as free as we think.

The beauty in animals is that they wake up, stretch, groom a little and go in search of food. Beyond that one imperative and the social relationships they form, they are free. If they make a mess it's biodegradable. We on the other hand, for all our modern choice are tied into an enormous machine of rampant consumerism. Society pressurises us from the day we're born to develop our sense of self identity through what we consume. Shopping, they tell us, is good for the economy and that must be good for everyone, right?

But on careful examination we're never in possession of 'things' we are possessed by them. Tied, owned, even down to how we see ourselves and define our own existence. It's really quite frightening. Yes we have more choice but rather than having more freedom, in some sense we're more ensnared than ever before.

We need to become aware that we're being controlled and in the light of that make clear choices. Like you, I try to be very careful where I shop, but it's damn difficult. They don't make it easy. Every time you find a company you think you can trust -eithically speaking - you discover that their not indipendant at all but owned by a huge ruthless multinationals like Nestle or Proctor and Gamble.

The solution is K.I.S.S. And in that I humbly refer to us all :)
 

FeralSheryl

Nomad
Apr 29, 2005
334
0
62
Gloucestershire
The increase in population is damaging everywhere. Example from bbc.co.uk - "The government expects about 200,000 new homes to be built this year - the highest number for 15 years". They admit some of those will have to be built on Green Belt land.

Yes the responsibility does come down to each and every one of us. It's natural to have families. I only ask, would it be so difficult for us to just have one or two children, rather than three or four?

Years ago no one knew there was a problem. Now we do. I'm not saying make a big thing out of it or carry it around like a burden, just think a little, s'all. :)
 

Not Bob

Need to contact Admin...
Mar 31, 2004
122
0
R-Bowskill said:
The advocates of the 'too many people' argument never seem sufficently convinced of the truth of what they are saying to try to reduce the problem starting with themselves do they?
If only....
 

bambodoggy

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 10, 2004
3,062
50
49
Surrey
www.stumpandgrind.co.uk
innocent bystander said:
Just to put a few more log's on the fire, how about this :
http://www.truthout.org/issues_05/printer_052305EB.shtml

It would seem to suggest that it isn't the vegetarians that are eating the amazon soya. It's cattle feed for maccie d's ;)

That's a very interestnig article, if a little sad. I did know about the Brazilian Soya production explosion (any time you want to apologise for getting it wrong Fluxus ;) ) but I wasn't as sure that the soya was destined for cattle feed (thanks for the input Innocent :) )....seems if they haven't got you one way, then they've got you another!!!!!! :eek:

Had a lovely time in the woods yesterday, found some nice fungus on old dead standing birch stumps and stripped the bark off a nice bit of willow to have a go at making some cordage.... very nice evening all round :D
 

Marts

Native
May 5, 2005
1,435
32
London
R-Bowskill said:
But the main problem with this kind of story is the use of the word "we". Has teh person who said it checked whether I am wiping anything out?.

I think when a word like 'we' is used it is used as a generalisation and in the context of the original post should be read as something like ' on balance the human species'. If we were to follow the line that you have given no-one would ever be able to say anything about larger-scale groups of any nature since the pure impracticality of carrying out a poll of every single person/ animal / inanimate object, everytime you want to make a broad argument, would preclude it in the first place.
In the end I would just take comfort in the fact that, as several people have pointed out so far, if you are not one of those contributing to the problem then that is as much as you can ask of yourself.
 

Minotaur

Native
Apr 27, 2005
1,605
235
Birmingham
Has anyone seen the stuff about David Bellamy recently? He is basically arguing that globol warming is natural, and is just the weather cycle of the planet. What is interesting about this is in all the arguements people cannot say he is wrong but do i.e. they talk about the hole in the o-zone layer, he says but what caused the last ice age and how do we know there was not a hole then?

Why have we not stopped using diesel and petrol, going over to veg oil? McD veg oil stations they could make a fortune.

We have struggling farmers all over the world but we pay them in Europe to not grow things, and screw them trade wise in the rest of the world so they grow things like cocaine or starve in a world with to much food.

Why do we buy food from other parts of the world? I am not talking about banana's but why buy lamb from New Zealand? I shop at Morrisons because part of their remit is to use British produce where possible and I check country of origin.

Why are we still making houses the same way we did 50 years ago? Why can we not have dial back meters like in the states, this means you can supply the national grid with electricty. Would we need wind farms if every house in England produced it's own electricty by solar panel roofs? They did an experiment on Today, where they repaired a house for the price of knocking it down to replace it with housing the people in the area cannot afford. Have you seen the grand master plan for Ullapool?

Change the world in three laws : -
a) all electrically applances have to use the minimium amount of electricty at all times. The biggest problem to people going off grid, those little red led's which use an amazing amount of power.
b) All new buildings have to be zero impact.
c) All buildings have to supply at least 80% of their own electricty.

It is all about money, rather than look at other opitions, business wants to keep the old cash cows going. It is not like we will be around to see how much damage we have done to the world. Oh wait a minute, globol warming, increased cancer rates, food scares, and massively increasing fuel prices which effect everything.

Putting my soap box away now. Wish I could go into the woods today but work, work, damn work.
 

ESpy

Settler
Aug 28, 2003
925
57
53
Hampshire
www.britishblades.com
Minotaur said:
Has anyone seen the stuff about David Bellamy recently? He is basically arguing that globol warming is natural, and is just the weather cycle of the planet. What is interesting about this is in all the arguements people cannot say he is wrong but do i.e. they talk about the hole in the o-zone layer, he says but what caused the last ice age and how do we know there was not a hole then?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...ob01.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/05/01/ixworld.html

The majority of the global warming debate appears to me to be hype & rhetoric based on poor science - if the article is true, I feel that this is a worrying trend.

Why have we not stopped using diesel and petrol, going over to veg oil? McD veg oil stations they could make a fortune.

WVO costs more to produce than creating it from rapeseed, can't remember what the budget is on that though. I'd prefer to use biodiesel in the LR, but can't find a reasonable source locally yet.

We have struggling farmers all over the world but we pay them in Europe to not grow things, and screw them trade wise in the rest of the world so they grow things like cocaine or starve in a world with to much food.

Why do we buy food from other parts of the world? I am not talking about banana's but why buy lamb from New Zealand? I shop at Morrisons because part of their remit is to use British produce where possible and I check country of origin.

NZ lamb was (mid-late 70s) a trade agreement between the UK & NZ... The EU has put paid to that, and Chernobyl had a hand in slam-dunking the UK lamb producers.

Why are we still making houses the same way we did 50 years ago? Why can we not have dial back meters like in the states, this means you can supply the national grid with electricty. Would we need wind farms if every house in England produced it's own electricty by solar panel roofs? They did an experiment on Today, where they repaired a house for the price of knocking it down to replace it with housing the people in the area cannot afford. Have you seen the grand master plan for Ullapool?

Perfectly feasible to sell back to the grid - AIUI, they don't make it easy, but it is doable. The downside with PV is the break-even points - the technology is still too expensive to be viable (and again, once you start looking at the manufacturing costs, they aren't that good from an eco POV). Micro CHP was starting to look interesting, but the recent gas price increases could well put paid to that - and the current units put out a piddling amount of power in household terms.

Change the world in three laws : -
a) all electrically applances have to use the minimium amount of electricty at all times. The biggest problem to people going off grid, those little red led's which use an amazing amount of power.

Er... 10mA is not your problem there, it is everything else that sits there on standby that costs!

b) All new buildings have to be zero impact.

In what sense?

c) All buildings have to supply at least 80% of their own electricty.

Tricky... By the time you get close to that in a modern household, you need next door's roof too :D

It is all about money, rather than look at other opitions, business wants to keep the old cash cows going. It is not like we will be around to see how much damage we have done to the world. Oh wait a minute, globol warming, increased cancer rates, food scares, and massively increasing fuel prices which effect everything.

It always is about money. Well, that and inertia.
 

Wayne

Mod
Mod
Dec 7, 2003
3,753
645
51
West Sussex
www.forestknights.co.uk
interesting debate this one with some strong ideas being put forward. The opinions being put forward seem very simplistic. Rob was correct that we all have a choice and each of our lifestyles can be questioned, i know mine is not perfect. i do my bit but i am listening to the radio whilst typing on a pc full od lead and rare metals. Mine car is an old diesel fiesta not the most efficent car but i like to think i am helping by using it till it dies rather than changing it as it is not fashionable.

How many of us here decorate our homes every couple of years change our cars buy the lastest gadets and generally live in our wasteful society. Maybe have a RSPB credit card to offset the guilt but still have 2.4 kids and drive them to school. the most enviromentally friendly people i know are my parents in law. The have not bought a stick of furniture for 30+ yrs and travel very little. Walk everywhere and consume little.

You only have to look at the largest number of threads on here are about kit. Titanium is hardly enviromental friendly. how much electricity is used to smelt Ali? My knife cost more that most african families get to feed themselves for a year. Tarps are lovely sheets of plastic. Swannies from NZ. Even the humble debris shelter strips the leaf litter.

Rather than debating whether veggies destroy more forests than carnivores. Look in thne mirror and ask what choices have i made today and what are their impact on the QUALITY of our all our lives.

Soapbox firmly put away. Be nice and lets try to be best we can be in all things.
 

Lostdog

Member
Sep 23, 2004
25
0
46
Stirling
A very interesting debate... I don't necessarily agree with everyones point of view but it is refreshing to see such an important matter being discussed. I find it particularly disappointing that topics like this are constantly kept from the agenda of all of the mainstream media outlets. (I guess it wouldn't do to broadcast something like this to the masses as it may result in a downturn in consumer spending and a decrease in profits for the corporations who produce the news programs and newspapers... conspiracy? I don't think so... [Another topic entirely and probably not one for this forum.])

Anyway as a lot of people on this thread are talking about the impact of the homo sapiens sapiens population on this planet I thought you may find this paper interesting:

http://www.ku.edu/~hazards/foodpop.pdf

I look forward to this discussion continuing...
 

Great Pebble

Settler
Jan 10, 2004
775
2
54
Belfast, Northern Ireland
It's an interesting debate, but after much mulling it over and the odd sleepless night in the past few years, I've come to the conclusion that a deabte is all it will ever be. A debate amongst inconsequential groups of people who are very nearly as much to blame as everyone they're complaining about.

As long as you reamin a part of a modern industrialised society, any conscious effort you make to reduce your personal impact on the ecology of the planet is inconsequential. You can go vegan, buy local, ride a bike, and light your home with reed candles. Your beanfeast still came to your local shop courtesy of an articulated lorry....
 
FeralSheryl said:
The increase in population is damaging everywhere. Example from bbc.co.uk - "The government expects about 200,000 new homes to be built this year - the highest number for 15 years". They admit some of those will have to be built on Green Belt land.

Yes the responsibility does come down to each and every one of us. It's natural to have families. I only ask, would it be so difficult for us to just have one or two children, rather than three or four?

Years ago no one knew there was a problem. Now we do. I'm not saying make a big thing out of it or carry it around like a burden, just think a little, s'all. :)
As a yorkshire man i have seen and know of whole housing estates that are abandoned or have been knocked down (five years ago that included where i grew up!)
The answer is not to build more houses but to invest in poorer areas and use the perfectly good housing that is just left to rot.
People have just moved to where the work is which is understandable.
Mr Blair seems hell bent on turning what little countryside we have left into to 300,000 pound yuppie shoe boxes! :eek:
 

Rob

Need to contact Admin...
With all this talk of buying stuff and develloping the world, we better not forget waste (your fault Wayne, you mentioned the contents of your PC).

I seem to recall Stuart talking about the locals on one of his trips. They make what they need from the environment, and when it breaks it gets tossed away to returning to the cycle of things.

This has been the same through our history - you only have to look at Tony Robinson getting excited about an old rubbish tip full of bone and bits of broken pot.

The trouble is that now, things dont go back to nature as quickly. Waste sites are running out, and the general population dont always do what they can to reduce the amount going to landfill. Legislation means that it is now expensive to dispose of waste properly, and fly tipping is on the increase.

If any of you out there run a business, or are involved in getting your skips at work emptied, have a look at your watse transfer notes. One relatively recent bit of legislation means that everything should have a European Waste Code entered against it - so it can be classified in a uniform way. I look at hundreds of these notes every year, and I am always surprised at how even some of the major waste companies dont seem to be using these properly - with each company either not recording the code or having a different one for the same waste collected on a different day.

Seperating waste for recycling is not always an ideal solution either in our increasingly global economy. Recent reports of PC and electronic equipment recycling operations in places like China shows that companies in the more develloped areas are happy to sell their problem on people who then extract what they want and have a burn up - no PPE and heavy meatals leeching all over the place.

All you can do is what you can - in your own personal circumstances. Everything that you can do will help.

When you visit the tip, have a look to see how easily people put stuff in the wrong skip - for the sake of a few yards extra walk to the next one.

When you go to the recycling bank at the local supermarket, take a look and see how many of the people - who visited with good intentions - then contribute to the occurrence of the "Plastic Bag Tree" by not taking the carrier bag away with them.

When you wash your car, dont do it near a surface water drain. If you use detergent, it will just mess up the oil interceptors that are installed at some point in the system - sending oily water into the watercourse. If you wash your car in the street in Australia, you can get fined.

Try not to buy stuff that is over-packaged. I dispair at the ecological disaster that is Easter Eggs.

Try and buy something that will last a long time, or can at least be repaired easily. Then think hard and try and get it repaired - rather than throwing it away and buying a new one. Dont treat your mobile as a fashion accessory, you dont need a new one while the old one still works.

When you get a visit from your local political activists, make sure you give them a hard time about all the paper they send out at election time, and ask them how much of it was made from recycled paper (i didnt see any recycled materials logo's on any of the propoganda that I got in the last couple of months). Give them a hard time - it makes their day ;)

Get out and appreciate what nature has provided, and leave the area looking like nobody else has been there. :)

And finally, when my time is up - I wanna be burried under a tree :eek:
 

FeralSheryl

Nomad
Apr 29, 2005
334
0
62
Gloucestershire
Jeeze, I can't keep up with these posts - So many issues involved!
Great Pebble said:
As long as you reamin a part of a modern industrialised society, any conscious effort you make to reduce your personal impact on the ecology of the planet is inconsequential. You can go vegan, buy local, ride a bike, and light your home with reed candles. Your beanfeast still came to your local shop courtesy of an articulated lorry....
What if I grow it myself? Back to the 'The Good Life' Guys. You think I'm joking? I've got Broad beans and Runner beans growing in my garden right now. They have very pretty flowers later on too ;)

In all seriousness I take your point but if you reduce the impact you make by a fraction, that's still a fraction less of a problem. Add all those little individual fractions up and they add up to a whole number and that's something.

Humans are dangerous and destructive animals, its practically (in both senses of the word) impossible to do no harm at all, but definitely possible to do less.

stotRE, you make an excellent point. The concentration of employment and housing in the south is nuts. In Wales too, I've driven through Ghost Towns - well, villages actually. Rows of ostensibly perfect terraced houses, abandoned when the mines closed down. You'd think some Business entrepreneur would see the opportunity there but they can't make the leap of imagination it seems. What a waste :(

Rob - Good on ya mate :)
 

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