Our own course

[falling rain]

OK folks listen up - Right, firstly I don't want to step on anyones toes who already runs courses but how about we arrange our own bushcraft course between us.
There is a wealth of information on here and people with some fantastic skills so how about we arrange a course between us and share some knowledge for free.
a few necessaries are needed though.
A place to run the courses - a willingness for people to offer to teach things - and a commitment from people to come along and attend the lessons.
My idea is that we meet up once a month for say 2 or 3 nights and each time we meet up we have a planned lesson(s). If we initially set a time frame of say 12 months so we have some structure. Anyone who offered to run a particular course would need to do it in a fairly professional way I.E. handouts where appropriate and advising people what to bring etc etc.
each few days session could run for example - Friday evening arrive, saturday plant ID'ing and uses (go for a bit of a walk) - lunch - cordage making - dinner - free time around the campfire - bed. Sunday - Bow drilling - make your own set from materials 'on the spot' lunch - natural tinders - man made tinders - dinner campfire - bed (just an eaxample so you get the idea, but I think it's important to have a definate programme for each weekend or it all goes to rat s*it.
What we don't want is people coming along and not taking part in the sessions and sitting around the campfire all day drinking tea. It's disrespectful to the person giving his time and knowledge. The idea is to come along and learn. Of course we will sit round the fire and drink tea during tea breaks. I'm happy to put together a course plan for the year with dates locations etc. All I need is people to offer to run some sessions with the dates they are free. Because we need structure it maybe best to just say (for example) the last weekend of each month. I know we won't be able to fit in with everybody's work responsibility's etc that would be impossible and not everyone could commit to coming each month but others may be able too. There's loads to learn - cooking - fishing - navigation - fire - cordage- plants etc, etc, etc. Everyone can be responsible for their own travel and food arrangements. Anyway - just an idea and your thoughts and questions are- welcome.

 

[torjusg]

Seems like there would be too much costs involved to make such an idea free. It is nice when people meet up to exchange skills, but what about the green ones? I don't like the idea of freeriders, which they essentially will be.

Don't know why there is a general unwillingness towards paying for knowledge? When I started learning this stuff, I had to buy a lot of books to find sufficient with information about it to be able to reconstruct many of the skills. I didn't know that anyone was out there teaching it. If I did, I could certainly have bypassed many hours of trial and error and unneccesary books bought.

Why not rather make up a list: I would like to learn this... and can teach you this... Making sure that everyone has something of general interest, you come together and teach eachother.

You probably will disagree with me on this, but I think I have given a resonable explaination.

 

[falling rain]

Seems like there would be too much costs involved to make such an idea free. It is nice when people meet up to exchange skills, but what about the green ones? I don't like the idea of freeriders, which they essentially will be.

Don't know why there is a general unwillingness towards paying for knowledge? When I started learning this stuff, I had to buy a lot of books to find sufficient with information about it to be able to reconstruct many of the skills. I didn't know that anyone was out there teaching it. If I did, I could certainly have bypassed many hours of trial and error and unneccesary books bought.

Why not rather make up a list: I would like to learn this... and can teach you this... Making sure that everyone has something of general interest, you come together and teach eachother.

You probably will disagree with me on this, but I think I have given a resonable explaination.

Not sure that have given a reasonable explanation Torjusg. Who are the 'Green ones'? and free riders? No general unwillingness from me for paying for knowledge I've paid for quite a few courses over the years but what's wrong with enjoying some other like-minded people's company and passing on a little of what you know, and that person then passing back something they may be able to share. Why pay for knowledge when it's not necessary? Why does everything in life have to revolve around flipping money all the time? We have hundreds of very skillful people on here. I think your reply is a bit on the negative side. Your second to last paragraph is pretty much exactly what I'm suggesting only I meant to have a bit of structure (people like structure and not all over the show) What costs would be involved other than personal travel, food costs? Anyone teaching would advise what to bring along. Anyway I'm just trying to be positive. We are a community after all arn't we, so don't communities help each other out? I didn't post this to get into why's and wherefor's I just want to do something worthwhile as I'm sure do many other folks on here.
I personally (and I'm sure the same goes for many others) have no problem whatsoever in teaching what I know to people who can't offer me anything back, and if they can that's a bonus. New year, new something to look forward too, new friends, new skills that's my idea behind it. I don't want to argue with anyone about this, there's enough bickering on other posts. Anyone who's not interested can stay away, anyone who wants to learn something or who wants to give a lesson is welcome.

 

[John Dixon]

Ok i am new to this site but isnt the moots part of that shairing process i have been to two and one offered some learning opportunities, it didnt have structure but i believe some have. i would suggest that a chalk board be put up with people offering sessions and times. that way people can pick and choose.

I for one am a proffessional outdoor instructor and realy enjoy this free culture and am willing to swap my skills for knowledge etc.

istn the moots the best option. otherwise there are insurance issues etc...

 

[torjusg]

Not sure that have given a reasonable explanation Torjusg. Who are the 'Green ones'? and free riders? No general unwillingness from me for paying for knowledge I've paid for quite a few courses over the years but what's wrong with enjoying some other like-minded people's company and passing on a little of what you know, and that person then passing back something they may be able to share. Why pay for knowledge when it's not necessary? Why does everything in life have to revolve around flipping money all the time? We have hundreds of very skillful people on here. I think your reply is a bit on the negative side. Your second to last paragraph is pretty much exactly what I'm suggesting only I meant to have a bit of structure (people like structure and not all over the show) What costs would be involved other than personal travel, food costs? Anyone teaching would advise what to bring along. Anyway I'm just trying to be positive. We are a community after all arn't we, so don't communities help each other out? I didn't post this to get into why's and wherefor's I just want to do something worthwhile as I'm sure do many other folks on here.
I personally (and I'm sure the same goes for many others) have no problem whatsoever in teaching what I know to people who can't offer me anything back, and if they can that's a bonus. New year, new something to look forward too, new friends, new skills that's my idea behind it.

Of course, if you feel your satisfaction is met by the social intercourse alone, that is fine for you. Honorable indeed.

The costs I meant also included compensation for degradation of the land, which will inevetably happen when lots of people use an area. I think it would be better to maybe organize a local skills group that can meet from time to time. To be frank, I think quite a few land owners would and perhaps should (because of the degradation of continous use) demand quite a large fee to allow an such a large community to use the site more or less on a come and go basis.

 

[Wayne]

Hi Nick.

You have an interesting concept. I know a number of schools that would be qute upset at the notion of giving away for free their skills.

As you know there is always an impact on the environment for what we do and there ill be costs involved. Transport land rent wood to burn etc. Kit gets damaged etc. You will need Risk Assessments and a Child Protection Policy each instructor if working with young people will need CRB clearance. (That may effect the Moot too).

I think a slightly more formal arrangement would be needed. eg I deliver a days fire in exchange for a days SPA. That way I am happy for my insurance to be used whilst I am teaching and I get something useful back.

there would be a lot of things to consider. location is going to be key. Great if its my local woods not so good if its the lakes. Transport costs are going to run high for a weekend away every month.

 

[torjusg]

I have heard about schools getting upset about people teaching skills away for free. That is not what I am saying, just for the record. It isn't THEIR skills more than it is anyone elses. You are of course entitled to teach what you know for free if it is your desire.

 

[Bushman_Brett]

i think the group meets cover this really, not that iv been to any but isnt the idea people go to a meet and share skills and ideas with each other.

Knowledge should be free, if they discovered something then fair enough keeping it for themselves but if it is age old methods personally i believe in teaching so others know better, lets face it if someone who doesnt know goes picking shrooms he could end up seriously ill, give him some knowledge and he wont,,, if someone wants to collect birch sap without the knowledge then they could end up killing the tree, give them the knowledge and they wont kill the tree

 

[Wayne]

Bushman what do you do for a living? I assume your trading on skills you have learnt at school, college and university. Why should other people who have invested as much in accquiring bushcraft and teaching skills not get paid? I doubt you will be handing back your pay cheque at the end of the month.

 

[Goose]

I agree with J.D., the meets already run along these lines. It may be even less formal than you suggest but it seems to work. Even with my limited skills I have passed on a few skills to others and in turn it has improved my own understanding and skills in the subject. In turn I have learnt a lot from others who have "sorted" a skill but would not consider themselves instructors, but they want to give something back too.
The moots(BCUK official) are more organised than local meetups, with tutorials and demos organised properly. Even at the moots(only been to one, but assume they all run along the same lines) there was skills swapping going on around the site, with ideas and skills being passed back and to, great place to learn with no pressure, on instructor student. Yes people make mistakes in this informal atmosphere, but how many mistakes have been taught by "proper" instructors that don't really know the subject but pressure was on by organisers to run the session?(more college setting on my part than bushcraft )

At meets there are swap tables, on this site and most others there is a swaps forum, people swap home made kit and shop bought stuff, it is not a problem for official sellers and will never be. The home made stuff that is swapped at first, gives the maker the chance to cut their teeth and experiment(look at some of the amazing leather work and knife making on here and BB :notworthy ), and although some stuff may not have the quality of a "shop bought" it is more likely you are going to get a real gem of a knife or whatever, maybe become a collector.
Swapping skills should be the same, it is not a danger to schools, it may even help them in the long run, how many potential staff will be cutting their teeth at meet ups, and how many potential students get a bit more confidence to go on a proper course?

 

[Eric_Methven]

I like the concept, but in practice I see it fraught with problems. The minute you organise training with schemes of work and lesson plans and formal instructors (qualified or not) you enter the realm of possible litigation if and when anything goes wrong. Once it becomes an official course, even if it's free, you will ALL need public liability insurance, and when you tell the insurance company you'll be using sharp shiny things, and teaching beginners or inexperienced people, the costs are astronomical. Land owners will almost definitely demand you have public liability.

The way we've done it in the past is to have an informal gathering of like minded people who pay their own way and freely exchange skills on an informal and when needed basis. That way you turn up when you can and leave when you must. You do your own thing (showing others if they're interested) and observe someone else when you see something new. It doesn't cost anything other than your fuel costs and camping fees.

Another possible problem comes when you need to get to a venue and you live at the other end of the country. Once a month ain't going to happen if you live near Dartmoor and I live in Scotland.

The other alternative is a network of small local groups getting together and cross teaching skills regularly but again on an informal basis. Then once or twice a year, maybe at official moots, there can be regional competitions between group members to hone skills already learned.

Training's great, and if it's free to give and recieve so much the better, but keep it simple and informal.

Eric

 

[falling rain]

Nope - misundestood again.
We're all big boys and girls if you cut yourself, burn yourself spill your soup down your lap...........it's your own fault , no one is going to sue anybody and nobody needs any insurance. You come along to the session to learn what's being offered entirely at your own risk and use any knowledge learnt entirely at your own risk and if you have an accident no one but yourself to blame. Lets take mushrooms. Someone teaches about them but it would be stressed that when you go away after the session, you pick at your own risk and whoever teaches that session (it wouldn't be me because I don't know a great deal about them) makes it perfectly clear that what you have learnt is used entirely at your own risk and the person who teaches can't be held responsible for any mistakes on your part or any mis-information on the teacher's. Did everyone teaching at the Bushmoot have personal liability or professional indemnity insurance? - I doubt it. Although some may have had because they teach full or part time anyway. Does everyone who offers to teach at the local moots and meet-ups have insurance...... Nope didn't think so. What I'm proposing will be along the same rules. Informal, but with a schedule that's the only difference. It gives people a plan to look at and a feeling of being involved in a course. Kids not allowed exactly for the reasons stated CRB checks involved etc etc. Adults can make up their own minds to come or not and are responsible for themselves - so that answers that question. If you want to teach your kids yourself afterwards that's up to you.
Degradation of land? - Nope we go to a campsite pay our money and use the public woods/land around us. ( i predict someone will now say what about landowners permission for taking plants etc) Then we don't take plants we just observe. If we're doing backwoods cooking lesson then it would of course be sensible to choose a campsite which allows fires. Beach foraging - we just go to the beach for the day from our campsite (that we have arranged so we're near a beach) and forage. Navigation - we use the land around us (sticking to permissive footpaths at all times - before anyone slips that old chestnut in) etc etc etc. In short - We use our common sense.
Wayne - respect you as I do. The skills are not 'theirs' (the schools) and if I choose to pass on for free something I may have learnt (paid for at a school) or something I've learnt myself. Then I'm perfectly entitled to do so. You chose to be an instructor and charge people money for your knowledge and it's your chosen living. You chose that way of life and way to make your living. If people want to pay you money then that's their choice, and I genuinely wish your business to be successful, I really do because you're someone I class as a friend. If I know how to strip an engine out of a car and choose to teach others how to do it then that's up to me. Alternatively they can pay a college to go on a course and learn. As I said before this is supposed to be a community, why can't we give without expecting anything in return from a particular individual for once. I have not got a problem with sharing what I know for free to people who are involved with this site because we are a community (I say it again) and It would be great if for a change (in life) people can give something and not necessarily expect anything back in return. Why are some people so suspicious of people's motives if something is offered for free? Transport costs arn't an issue. If you can come then come, if you can't afford it or don't have a car or it's too far because you live in Scotland, or you can't make it that weekend, because you have another arrangement or you can't be bothered etc, etc, etc then don't come. It's as simple as that. As I said we are all big boys and girls and quite capable of making our own decisions.
The idea of a once a month session is so there is continuity and structure. If someone is prepared to say 'right this year I want to boost my skills and I'm going to go along to those sessions'. And it's a damn fine excuse to get out into the woods once a month every month. If you're a kit fiend or armchair bushcrafter etc then no one's forcing you to come. It's intended for people who are genuinely interested in bushcraft and want to get out of the house and learn something. We wouldn't get swamped because a lot of people arn't interested in actually learning or practising anything they just like to talk about kit and that's fine. Each to their own.
Anyway it was just an idea. I've had only fairly negative responses so far and what seems to me to be looking for problems for looking for problems sake. We're a community or supposed to be anyway and why would someone want to sue someone else on here. We're responsible for ourselves and if (in the case of mushrooms for example) we choose to pick and consume, then we do so at our own risk despite what we may have been taught. We all know the dangers and that some species could be confused, that would be made clear if you were on a paying course or a free course. If you smash an axe into your shin and split it open it's you who have done it........no one else. Who does risk assesments for their local meet-ups? probably nobody.
The bushmoots are great events but why should we only meet twice a year, and why should we expect others to arrange things for us. Tony and team are quite busy enough. Why don't we take some responsibility, bite the bullet and arrange something for ourselves instead of waiting for others to do it for us. Too much like hard work and it's easier to let someone else do the work maybe?
Anyway I've written enough. If anyone has the get up and go, and wants to do something positive and constuctive and actually learn something instead of talking about it, and dosn't worry about sueing someone for a mistake they've made themselves, insurance, risk assesments and all the other rules and regulations we have in society nowadays, and wants to join in on a completely 'I'm a big boy or girl now and responsible for myself and don't seek to blame someone else if something goes wrong' basis then still give me a shout.
I've tried to explain as best I can the idea.

 

[ScottC]

It's a great idea and I hope it can come about, I for one would be interested. There is already a group that does something like this every other month and as far as I know it hasn't been "fraught with problems".

Yes such a event is covered by the moots but they only come up perhaps twice a year and aren't free either, having a group gather once a month to share skills would be a great stimulus to actually get people out and practising skills that they are so fond of talking of.

I do think it would have to be on private land though if some can be found, perhaps a small charge per person say a fiver a night to give to the site owner/manager to keep em sweet.

Perhaps a less formal approach may be wise, for example one month its announced that we will be covering outdoor cooking and then the next its bowdrilling or whatever it is people are willing to teach. People can go along to the demos or go off and do there own stuff, all the while getting outdoors and learning and honing skills.

 

[leon-1]

I can see what falling rain is saying.


What he is talking about is a meet on a regular basis, on the first meet people could talk about what they want to learn about and on the next they can practice those skills. At the end of each meet people talk about what they would like to cover on the next meet.

It's a good idea.

It may not be popular with the schools, but if people are interested in specific skills and they cannot afford courses then they have nowhere to go. If people can afford courses there will be questions along the lines of "where did you do your course / courses?"

Informal meets are good, they do not neccesarily deprive schools of work, they can actually drum up work for schools, people with an interest may actually go out and pay for courses off thier own backs after having got a taster from a meet.

Some skills, like crafts, flintknapping, firecraft and tracking could be taught at meets, but courses which are specific will cover a lot more and you will learn a lot of the finer points about these skills in the long run by doing courses with people that teach them all the time.

As has been mentioned it is when meets become formal that the problems set in, this is where schools are in a far better position, with thier insurances and all the health and safety regs that they have to abide and qualify by.

Skill sharing is something which is quite natural, when you are out and about with friends and they look over and see you doing something they're not famillair with they will ask and naturally you will show them.

This is on a peer to peer basis, it is informal, but when you start doing the tutor to student basis this is when insurances / health and safety regs / CRB and all the other checks are going to be required and applied as you have now moved into the formal mode of teaching.

 

[bloodline]

Good idea Nick, Im not that skillful but will try and support you if I can. You may find its hard to get enough bodies to turn up though, we have a regular meet in Kent and the lack of support is quite disapointing. It is worth it though as its great to share what you know with each other and I dont feel it will impact on anyone that makes a living out of running courses.

 

[falling rain]

OK I'll get the ball rolling then, for people that are interested. February 2007 23rd 24th and 25th (friday, Sat, Sun)

Location is here http://www.greenhill-leisure-park.co.uk/index.htm
Please book yourself via the contact details on the website if you want to come along. As far as I know no trees for hammocks, and campfires not allowed, but you can check when calling to book. Bring your own food and of course usual eating sleeping tent kit etc.

Arrive Friday 23rd Feb from midday. No lessons planned for the friday as people will arrive at different times and will need time to set up tents and cook food.
Saturday morning - Bucksaw making. Make a collapsable bucksaw with a hazel frame. (like in Mors K's book not the type on the edged tools thread) - Please bring a bowsaw blade Bahco 21" will be perfect. 2 split rings about 1" diameter and around 6' of para cord. You can bring your own Hazel if you like or we'll look for some on site. You'll need around 1 six foot length of dead straight and knot free if possible hazel around an inch thick at the base. If it tapers it's not a problem, but it should be very straight if possible - Lunch (cook your own) - Saturday afternoon - Spoon carving- make a spoon/spatula, bread board from whatever woods we can find (not Yew or poisonous woods obviously) - Dinner or eat at the ........... - nearest pub
Sunday morning - Navigation - Please bring a map of the area and a compass. If we split the cost of a map between say 3 or 4 people per map that shouldn't come to much each (maybe a couple of quid each. Lunch - Mini Nav ex - Dinner - night Nav ex -............. oh go on then after night nav ex nearest pub again . Monday morning pack up and go home unless you've had to get away the night before. If anyone can navigate (map and compass) and wants to help out that would be appreciated. Also a bit of a lesson GPS would be good if anyone has one.

That's my plan for the first session. If anyone can offer some lessons for the last weekend in March that would be great. It dosn't have to be for the whole weekend it could be just for a morning or afternoon and we'll patch together a weekend of lessons from different people. If anyone coming along could just make it known too that would be great then we'll all know how many to expect.

 

[amott69]

as its only about two miles from my house i think i should be able to come along but i'll have to check with her-in-doors as she works sundays and friday nights

 

[Bushman_Brett]

Bushman what do you do for a living? I assume your trading on skills you have learnt at school, college and university. Why should other people who have invested as much in accquiring bushcraft and teaching skills not get paid? I doubt you will be handing back your pay cheque at the end of the month.

I work in alternative energys, largely in wind generators and solar water heating, but im always studying and researching in other areas not yet on the market, I give all my knowledge on this freely to anybody that wants to know or listen and on websites relating to this, If there is work to be done then i charge for the components/materials used and for my time to carry out the work, but the knowledge and advice comes for free because its something that interests me and i think more people should know about these alternate methods plus its something i love talking about.

i suppose if i was to make a living from personally showing people how to build a wind generator of there own then i would have to charge for my time involved in doing that, however if i was demonstrating at the odd location for people i know from a group then i wouldnt charge, But if it was just advice and guidance people want then i dont mind explaining the whole process in theory.

 

[dommyracer]

Sounds interesting Falling Rain.

As far as I know no trees for hammocks,

Their web site says its set in 210 acres of woodland, wonder if they'd allow hammocks in there?

 

[falling rain]

Sounds interesting Falling Rain.



Their web site says its set in 210 acres of woodland, wonder if they'd allow hammocks in there?

Not sure DR...... give them a shout. I don't have a hammock but kipping in the woods would be good. I'll ask too when I book.