Elitism?

[Scots_Charles_River]

Britches will make a comeback, hope they do, they were good stuff.

I do wonder how those cowboys survived wearing jeans though

Walk along Cortina de Ampezzo (dolomites) high street on a july evening, you will see many breeches. Also on the hill during the day.

................Each valley in the region has its distinctive traditional costume, worn to church on Sundays or during the frequent religious and civic celebrations. Men's garb is usually leather breeches with elaborate belts and coats or vests in somber colors over bright shirts; women are resplendent in billowing skirts with gaudy aprons, embroidered bodices and high black or gold-ornamented headdresses................

 

[crazydave]

I think it originates from the very first posts when folks wanted to know what was the best and its kind of grown from that. I've had folks look in horror as I've used a swisstool/big blade instead of a fancy knife/axe or complained that ventile isnt the be and end all regards outdoor fabrics

In my opinion the kit snobs are the ultimate in armchair hobbyists and you see it in every hobby.

its all part of a deeper snobbery though which goes all the way through the forum if I'm allowed to be frank. recently I n oticed a few topics which had to be shut down and comments about not being welcoming to newbies who ask much repeated questions to others but for them are frequently a big step at a first post on a new forum.

hoods woods is the same now, I know a few who refuse to go there again.

 

[big_swede]

Scandanavian winters are cold and dry.

Our winters are cold and wet; it's the wet that makes cotton so dangerous in our climate.

I've felt warmer in Finland at -20c than UK at 0c because of the humidity. At -20c there is very little moisture in the air.

Yes this is very true. But Toddy talked about kit list for skiing...

 

[Toddy]

We ski here too, and it can be very wet snow.
I know that sounds like an oxymoron but it's true.
Make a snowball and frequently all you make here is a lump of ice

Different climates create very different clothing choices.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[timboggle]

I now get my kit in Primark and throw it in the bin every 6 months or so, sometimes after several weeks in the jungle it's cheaper than washing it !!

 

[rik_uk3]

Walk along Cortina de Ampezzo (dolomites) high street on a july evening, you will see many breeches. Also on the hill during the day.

................Each valley in the region has its distinctive traditional costume, worn to church on Sundays or during the frequent religious and civic celebrations. Men's garb is usually leather breeches with elaborate belts and coats or vests in somber colors over bright shirts; women are resplendent in billowing skirts with gaudy aprons, embroidered bodices and high black or gold-ornamented headdresses................

The first pair I had for climbing were ex army and made of Corduroy but worked OK, then I got a tweedy pair. Wooly balaclava hats have made a bit of a come back, the really itchy kind

http://www.joe-brown.com/outdoor-equipment/clothing/hats-and-headgear/trailwise-wool-balaclava.html

When you wore them often enough the inside got oiled from your hair and the itching stopped. As most of us wash our hair daily these days I don't suppose the itching would ever stop now.

 

[eel28]

Surely all that matters is the piece of kit does the job that it is intended for - no matter if that cost one pound or several hundred pounds!

 

[wentworth]

I never said people would die wearing jeans. Just that they're not a great choice for people who actually walk more than a mile or two... There's a difference between making do with inferior equipment and touting it as suitable.

You don't exercise in a down sleepingbag, increasing the sweating to the point of saturation. I don't think the two can really be compared.

There are better material choices than cotton for those who participate actively outdoors. Cotton absorbs moisture and holds it and is slow to dry. That isn't opinion. I feel that some people are getting a little hurt that anyone suggest otherwise. Some fibres are hydrophilic and some aren't. That fact can't be argued away by the "it's just a matter of perspective" tag.

Anyway, I don't want this to turn into an argument, as this is the least offensive forum I know of. Must be you Brits and your good manners

 

[johnboy]

I've been following this thread with interest...

Time to pitch in with my thoughts.. Basically my ethos is if kit works in the environment your operating in then all's good... I have an eclectic mixture of outdoor gear some old some new some cheap or secondhand some new and pretty expensive... What you're asking of your kit is it does it's job and keeps you safe. I guess if your operating in low level European woodland you're in a relatively benign environment and have a greater lattitude in the kit you can use: home made, ex army,jeans, ventile etc etc. Wind up at 1500m on an exposed mountain side in late Autumn then you have less lattitude kit wise as staying warm and dry is really important and the environment is more challenging.


If I remember back to 2003 and when the forum first started there were a lot of posts about which bit of kit RM had what jacket, boots etc part of Bushcrafting seemingly was getting the kit not always RM inspired I hasten to add, that made you stand out as a bushcrafter ( should that be blend in??) getting a fixed blade knife and a ventile jacket or SFA was a rite of passage and a lot of us went with the flow I think for a lot of folk that is still the case and to be honest there is nothing wrong with that at all. If I'm honest with myself I enjoyed getting my single layer olive green ventile jacket much more than I ever enjoyed getting soaked though wearing it.

Bushcraft as a hobby has developed and now there is far more choice of kit around and great people making great stuff like possible pouches and leather work, knives etc. Bushcraft kit choice is bigger then ever...

New 'heros' use new kit on the TV and we chat about it here on the forum and some of us buy it and some of us try and sell it.. Is there elitisim and kit snobbery here on the forum.. Yes of course there is from both sides. The kit chatter section of the forum has the most posts of any other section.. The truth is as a forum we all like talking about kit from whatever view point. One question could be why? If we're all out there bushcrafting away then kit is the means rather than the end so 'out and about' should be chocked full of posts? I suspect the reason we chat about it and ask for opinions on kit so much is that the majority of us just aren't out there as much as we'd like to be. I get out a fair bit into some great country with relatively few restrictions compared to what I read about in the UK but it's not as much as I'd like so for me looking at a Bergen or stove is a bit of a way of connecting with what I'm missing and comming and posting on a forum about kit is a cool thing to do as it sates my desire to be outdoors. I suspect that's true for a lot of folk who post on here...We'd like to be out doing it but buying a baselayer or posting on the forum is the next best thing... So I take the kit elitisim thing with a pinch of salt as I don't think it really reflects the true person behind the post. That persons posting on the forum which means they have something in common with me which is all good...

 

[BOD]

Cheap or expensive , home made or bought its just kit. Can it do the job? Often it can if used properly

I just love it when some one discards kit because its " a @#%& piece of *0%4#" or seen as junk.

I have done quite well especially with diving kit over the years

 

[Tadpole]

Being constantly short of money, my criteria for kit is more exacting than most. Not only does it have to be affordably, and fit for purpose, it also has to last. I can’t afford to throw kit away after only a season; it has to be hard wearing long lasting, and if possible environmentally sound. A ‘technical’ tee-shirt from some pound shop is only worth buying if it lasts.
A bargain is only of any real value if it’s needed and last long enough to ‘pay back’ the investment of time effort and money. From socks to lamps, research for yourselves, you decide which is better value to you, as that is all that matters, be it buying the latest U2 surefire torch, for a couple of hundred, or buy an eBay bargain Cree q5 for £20. To me the cree q5 is more ‘useable’, taking AAA batteries and kicking out 260 lumen for two hours, but the U2 is smaller and lighter, it all depends on what you need and what you want to pay.
As for elitism, it’s all around you, why should bushcraft be any different. There are some who think that you’re not a bushcrafter unless you hunt, others think you’re not a bushcrafter if you hunt, for hunting read knife making or leather work or spoon carving or car camping or ultra light camping or ground dwelling or tenting it, or .... well the list is endless.

 

[The Cumbrian]

Patagonia, the California manufacturer of outdoor apparel, also conducted similar tests, with the results showing that hemp has eight times the tensile strength and four times the durability of other natural fibers." Modern Textiles, Dorothy Siegert.

cheers,
Toddy[/QUOTE]


I've got some of those Patagonia hemp jeans, and they're very good. The only trouble is that they're the baggiest trousers this side of the 1930s. I bought them for climbing and bouldering in, but had to stop wearing them for that because I couldn't see my feet. When I wear them, my wife says that I look like I've inherited a fat man's clothes.

 

[gregorach]

Climbing and bouldering in jeans? Now that is an inappropriate choice of clothing... Lycra FTW!

 

[John Fenna]

Ahh - in MY day real expert climber used to climb and boulder in WHITE denims (roadside mainly so folk could watch and see how good they were..)They tended to go home if they got dirty or it started to drizzle though...
Mountaineers on the other hand wore britches - often cut down from WW2 woolen trousers...
Ah - memories.....

 

[The Cumbrian]

Ahh - in MY day real expert climber used to climb and boulder in WHITE denims (roadside mainly so folk could watch and see how good they were..)They tended to go home if they got dirty or it started to drizzle though...
Mountaineers on the other hand wore britches - often cut down from WW2 woolen trousers...
Ah - memories.....

One of my favourite climbing pics was in one of Jim Perrin's books, and it showed a bunch of lads bouldering in North Wales in the 70s. PAs, 24" white flares, mutton chop sideburns and a selection of bad haircuts. They were the elite of their day.

 

[Broch]

Cheap or expensive, is it just me that finds some modern kit just doesn't have 'soul'.

An old knife that's still useable, an axe head saved from a car boot sale, my old leather '60s scout belt - all have soul and do the job just as well as new gear.

I do have and like new kit, both expensive and 'lower cost', but I don't have the same feeling about it - I could replace all of it without difficulty (money aside) but my old gear is irreplaceable.

Broch

 

[John Fenna]

I love "recycled" and venerable gear!
As you say - it has soul!
Nothing can imitate that......

 

[spoony]

look my kits better than yours and i know more than you, so lets leave it there.....




kits a funny thing, wouldnt like to sit to close to a spitting fire in a £300 goretex jacket, but then again i wouldnt like to climb striding edge in a dpm cotton ex issue coat. I think everything has its place. Whether its a second hand military jacket or brand new kit costing ££££ if its cheap and it works use it... if you have the dosh to spend and want to buy the lastest clobber buy it.

 

[Kerne]

If I win the lottery I will buy more kit. I will also make more kit (because I will have given my boss two fingers notice and will have more time on my hands.) If I buy the best kit going it will not make me a better bushcrafter or, indeed, a better person. But it will make me happy

I do notice what kit others are wearing but only because I want to know if it does the job, what they think of it, would they buy it again, etc. Often, people ask me about my kit and I try to give an honest appraisal - this is important as they are often kids (e.g. D of Eers) who have little money but can easily be seduced what they perceive as by the "right" gear - just look at the trainers they buy! Anyone who openly scorns another's gear will struggle to find it comfortable around most of our campfires. Anyone who wants to weigh up the pros and cons of various bits of kit will always be welcome - we are a pretty nerdy lot after all.

 

[ol smokey]

I do not agree with this elitism and non elitism discussion at all, Bushcraft is all a learning
situation and as will always be the case, there will be members with lots of knowledge, and those starting off.
When I joined the forum a couple of years ago, there did not seem to be all this carping between members about status etc., We are all entitled to have our opinions about things
but do we need to keep telling others they are wrong. Surely if you like someones gear you admire it and indeed copy it if you have the skills or money to buy it. If you do not like it or think it is poor value. you may advise them of an alternative when they can afford it, or how to obtain a similar but more efficient item from an inexpensive source.
I just love seeing good gear which some members have created themselves and have
copied some of their ideas. The Hobbo Stove for example, but that has not stopped me
forking out £160 for a" woodlore" cloan knife , Because I could afford it at the time. I would
consider it worth it, not to have my Pints of Beer for many months in order to pay for it.
I can cherish it and enjoy it for many years, Knowing that it will serve me well. No doubt many members will think this is crazy, But as has been said before we are all entitled to
make our own choices in life and learn by our mistakes. I may not be as true a bushcrafter as many of the members as I tend to like my comforts too much, but I am not saying that camping or hammocking is roughing it, But I do like my Goose Down sleeping bag, and Hennessey Hammock, and see no need to be apologetic over my choice, I feel
that it is worth doing without many other things for ages in order to afford some item of
gear that you know will work for you. I am aware of all the discussions about Down
getting damp and not insulating etc., but after camping for more than fifty years, with synthetic and even kapoc stuffing, I have learned that if I can afford it I go for what I find suits me. I am not hard on gear and try to look after it as well as possible. and really good stuff lasts better than a cheap option, but is more costly to replace .
From experience I like Goretex for Mountaineering gear but would not use it in the woods
Each piece of gear may be suited to one activity better than another. And I am not getting into the Denim discussion thank you very much. Each to his own, and that is how it should be. Enough said