Elitism?

[Wayland]

Having just read yet another thread harping on about elitism, I keep wondering where it actually is?

To hear some people talk you would think there is a cadre of bushcraft snobs out there, ready to check your clothing labels and root through your kitbag to work out how much you have spent on your gear.

I just don't see it.......

The gear that I most often see being talked about at meets is the stuff that has been cobbled together from yard sales and redundant sofas. Clever solutions are admired much more than the brands you are using.

Is it going on behind my back or perhaps I just need to get some glasses?

I hear plenty of people moaning about it and even some pointing fingers but as far as I can tell, they are the only ones that are qualified to spot it. The rest of us are too blind to see apparently.

Could it possibly be that they are the ones being elitist?

 

[Grooveski]

My martian mates say that bushcraft on Earth's a joke anyway. Frankly if you can't get rocks to burn in a 95% CO2 atmosphere you're just kidding yourself on.

 

[Prawnster]

I think it's there at both ends of the spectrum.
Recently though I think that there has been more of a trend towards those that like to make their own gear and grab a bargain scoffing at those that like to find out what the best brand available is and paying for it accordingly.

Kit threads always have at least one person saying they wouldn't dream of paying x amount for whatever it is, making the poster feel like they've been ripped off or that they're being extravagant.
But you never see someone who has grabbed a bargain or made something themselves being told to stop being so cheap and buy some decent gear because of course that would be rude. Why doesn't it work the other way?

 

[Sainty]

I think it's there at both ends of the spectrum.
I think recently though that there has been more of a trend towards those that like to make there own gear and grab a bargain scoffing at those that like to find out what the best brand available is and paying for it accordingly.

Kit threads always have at least one person saying they wouldn't dream of paying x amount for whatever it is, making the poster feel like they've been ripped off or that they're being extravagant.
But you never see someone who has grabbed a bargain or made something themselves being told to stop being so cheap and buy some decent gear because of course that would be rude. Why doesn't it work the other way?

Actually Prawnster, It does. Check this out http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=587256&postcount=16

Personally, I don't care what anyone thinks about my kit or whether I have too much, too little (not likely), too cheap or too dear. I have a hobby that I love and have met some fantastic people as a result.

Is there an élite in 'bushcraft'? I don't know. There are certainly people who are more committed to a certain path/ethos and maybe they feel superior to those of us who are more relaxed about the whole affair. I guess, from my point of view, it's a case of 'each to his own'.

Incidentally, if there is an élite that I don't know about, please could you tell me where I can join?

Martin

 

[Prawnster]

Martin I think the point Mikey P was making in that thread you refer to was more to do with design and copyrights than criticising someone who doesn't look to buy branded gear.

This is a good point well made though. Very perceptive.

There are certainly people who are more committed to a certain path/ethos and maybe they feel superior to those of us who are more relaxed about the whole affair.
Martin

 

[mart]

Wayland, I'm not about to suggest that you are mistaken in your assumption, I havent been on this forum very long and i dont know anyone. I couldnt begin to understand how this could be. Surley you purchase or aquire equipment that will allow you to undertake a given activitey be it climbing a munro in winter or sumer camping beside steam with your feet in the water. What difference it makes how you got your gear I'll never know. One thing I do know is that i'm very vocal when i see people up the hills in the bleak mid winter without the bare minimum cause they are risking the MRT's lives through their stupidity. And i have seen, and berated, many i consider to be fools especialy when i've been on a sumit and out of the white some fool comes up and the first thing they ask is, which is the best way down "MATE"
I will pay for the best equipment if I feel its needed so if i'm a snob I dont care.
On the other hand I still have gear that i bought when i first started working at sixteen, it cost me a fortune but will last a lifetime.
I have other stuff i've begged borrowed or made. As long as its up to the job there is no difference in my mind.


Rant over.

Regards, Martin.

 

[some like it cold]

Id argue its less elitism and more cliques which you get in every interest or hobby

ive some on here rave about the kit they've made themselves and suggest that if you buy it you're crazy and they are balanced by those who buy everything seeing it as superior because its made by specialist "craftsmen"

I personally like to try making my own stuff but have to be honest if my life is depending on it (rare to be honest) i like something i can trust and as yet im too much of a novice to trust my own kit with my life

that all being said ive always found people on the forums to be helpful and not elitist and snobby

 

[Neumo]

As has been said, I think there are bound to be people who are elitist and those who take the opposite view (a bit of good old british class envy, dare I say it, may be at work there). You need to remember that among the members here, like on any other forum, will have quite a wide range of income levels, so if you are skint (like me at the moment) such a student, the unjobbed etc.. then reading about someone spending £200 on a new hammock or whatever is bound to bring out a few comments. Thats all part of the experience. Soomeone who earns £80k a year will have a different outlook on buying kit than someon on £18k

The wise often read up about their next purchase, get advice where they can & then spend their hard earned money on something they know is good. If you use the kit a lot & are in to your hobby then why not save up to get something that you know is good kit & which you will get a lot of use out of over a lobg time. Thats just wise use of your cash after all. But some people will make the mistake of thinking you are being flash or even try to put other people down by saying 'look at MY Gucci kit...', when often that is not the case.

I, for example, will be getting a decent pair of boots for walking, bushcraft & the field soon; the last pair cost quite a bit but I have worn them 3 or 4 times a week for the last 6 years, so I have had value for money out of them. I know that if I spend £40 on the next pair they just wont last. Just my 2 EuroCents worth.

 

[Toddy]

I confess, mea culpa, I'm a fabric snob

I think that silk, linen, hemp, nettle, ramie, bamboo, wool, cashmere, leather and fur and the like are the best materials...............except when it's pouring and then I want something modern that really works to keep the rain out

...........erm.........well, that's it really.



I don't like seeing someone working near fires wearing something that will flare up if it catches a spark, or so ill prepared for the weather or the terrain that they put others at risk to get them out of trouble.

Tell you what I do like though, seeing things folks make for themselves and others. The numbers of people in this hobby of ours who have been encouraged to have a go at DIY, and then gone on to produce some really top notch kit, is quite remarkable and, better yet, though they can admire and access the past, the items they produce are firmly suitable for the here and now What can't change dies, keep the ideas coming and the skills developing and we all benefit

Does that make me elistist ? I hope not, I'd hate to discourage anyone. I certainly don't see it in the Meets I get along to, or the Moot either. Most folks are happy to discuss though

Some very good points made by earlier posters, maybe make us aware that some maybe do see the topic as an issue.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[BorderReiver]

I buy and use gear that suits me.

Don't give a toss if someone criticises it, their opinion is irrelevant.

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

There is elitism everywhere, it's human nature !

People are too quick to put down others who are 'not doing it right'.

Just look at all the eltism around the Bear Grylls and Ray Mears threads. Every week there is a new thread on one of these guys.

One think I hate, is Elitism. I work in school and I'm always up against it. One thing at the moment is how NGBs (national governing bodies) of sports are pumping all the money into Olympic athletes at the expense of grass roots an wider participation. Ironically it's 'our' money from Lottery funds. On exeption is Climbing, where the NGB is pretty good. Althouhg that sport stinks of Elitism.

Ho Hum, back to marking !

Nick

 

[Shewie]

I'm a kit junkie and go for the best kit I can afford

I appreciate a well made label but not necessarily anymore than something that somebody has made themselves.

I like a good bargain the same as anyone, if I find something worth shouting about then I always spread the word on here if it's relevant, e.g the Polish army tent or the Outwell kettles etc.

It's the same with any hobby, you put into it what you want.

I do see elitism/anti elitism (whatever the word is) sometimes but it's usually from the same few, not too hard to ignore that way I find.

 

[malente]

I used to be a elitist kit junkie, but then I worked in a really good gear shop for a while and now I'm healed. Now I like the cheap surplus stuff

 

[Kerne]

I luuuurve kit. I would, however, never criticise anyone else's or claim that mine is better - it just gives me a nice warm glow when I stroke it (I know, sad - but true).

I want to make my own stuff - not because I believe it will be better but for the intense personal satisfaction that it brings.

The kit that lasts the course does its job - in an unfussy way. So, some of my kit is ancient and some brand new. I have met very few (any?) elitists in my outdoorsy life. I think, generally, we are an accepting bunch. Long may it be so.

 

[treefrog]

Having worked for a few years in the outdoor trade and procurement before my current profession I have shed loads of kit (literally).
I can still get most of my stuff at trade prices, however i am finding myself wanting to learn how to sew with a machine.
I find that kit nowadays is good, but would be better if they'd just added this or left out that.

 

[stevesteve]

I suspect that the sensible way forward is a combination of good kit.

I think Mart's point is well made about numpties who climb up snow covered hills in bad kit. There's no excuse for that but even so I suspect that some kit is priced to a brand name, sometimes beyond it's quality.

Many people here are not going into extreme weather so anything from army surplus kit to shiny branded gear will do the job. Personally I am with Wayland on this as folk with homemade bits always seem to get the most praise. It seems to embody the spirit of bushcraft. I have used a Woolies drainer hobo stove for years and I make bits and bobs for myself. I like finding second hands stuff too. I found a good quality branded, breathable shell jacket with zipped-in fleece for £9 in a charity shop in Lymington; that was a happy morning!

Cheers,
Steve

 

[stovie]

My signature says it all...

 

[dogwood]

Personally I am with Wayland on this as folk with homemade bits always seem to get the most praise. It seems to embody the spirit of bushcraft.

I don't know about getting praise, but I know it's rewarding to make your own kit.

Using things you have made yourself also has an inherent advantage in that if you made it, you can fix it.

It's also deeply satisfying to use something that you made.

I believe where we spend our money matters in the grand scheme.

If you don't make your own kit and tools, I feel that buying from individual craftspeople (preferably local) is always the best choice simply because we should all do what we can to support craftspeople.

And, generally speaking, supporting craftspeople usually nets you great kit at a price that's competitive with manufactured goods (exceptions abound when it comes to really famous craftspeople, of course...).

I focus on supporting local crafts and shops. If I have to go outside my area then I support people who make handmade things and if I can't find what I'm looking for from them, then I try to go to small, like-minded manufacturing companies to support them.

And with food, I try hard -- and happily it's pretty easy for me because of where I live -- to source the majority of my food from local farmers.

I can honestly say that I don't spend a penny that I don't think about where it goes and who benefits from it. I want to make sure my money goes to neighbors and/or people I believe in.

Sure, like most people these days, I wind up buying some stuff made half a world away (usually China) but I do that only after focusing energy on supporting things closer to home and individuals.

I guess focusing your spending on trying to maximize benefits for the "right people" (i.e. craftspeople) would qualify as a form of elitism, but I don't think it's a negative brand of elitism.

 

[John Fenna]

I am a kit junkie and proud of it!
I love trying out all the flash new bits of kit, the legendary "must haves" and the "right" fabrics....
Luckily my job goes a long way to sarisfying this addiction..
However - I also love making things and some of my most used kit is stuff that I have made or heavily adjusted (ie a stainless cutlery drainer Hobo) to what I require.
I got into gear testing for mags through being a freelance designer of clothing for the outdoor trade...I got into clothing design from making my own as I could not afford to buy the good stuff...I found out what was good stuff by buying stuff I could afford and finding it wanting.
I actually owned one of the first Goretex jackets sold in the UK...it were carp! AND it cost a small fortune! (Berhaus Mistral in 2 tone blue).
I like new and shiny and will get it where I can - but I do not look down (as it were) on those who do not have it all.
I like to make use and show off my home made efforts - and admire the work of better makers (my Hobo is crude compared to many) who work various matterials better than I ever could (dammit -I am design trained, not a machineist! and my metal skills are....basic!)
On meets I have and will admire those who can make/do stuff that is so good/well that it eclipses the work of other mortals,
Those who merely make usable stuff get my admiration for having a go (and getting great satisfaction from it) and I may admire the top class gear that someone has had the dosh to buy, but those who get out, have fun with wharever they have, (costly or cheap) and enjoy themselves in the Bushyness are the real elite of this game!
IMHO

 

[Draven]

Maybe I'm just paying more attention than I used to, but I seem to be noticing more Bushy elitism recently, whether it's someone buying fashionable kit and looking down on people not doing it, or someone buying dirt cheap/making their own kit and looking down on people who want to buy their own. Then there's people looking down on others for not using what they deem to be an ideal tool, or kept in ideal condition, or made in an ideal way. I've probably been guilty of the latter - I'm a naturally opinionated and blunt person, so it wouldn't surprise me - though I can't recall being guilty of the former, not least of which because I can't afford expensive stuff, wish I could (tools, anyway) and I'll be damned if I know what ventile or goretex is, never mind consider it the be-all and end-all.

I've probably seen elitism in a more general/directionless sense, ie people ranting on about how absolutely appalling cotton/denim is, without actually looking down on someone about it - though it annoys me just the same. I've worn nothing but denim jeans, cotton shirts and leather jackets since I had my first pocket knife and I don't see that changing..

I expect that in most cases it's unintentional and unnoticed, and ultimately depends on your distinction between elitist, opinionated, et cetera. I don't think it matters all that much, elitism exists everywhere and is just one of those things that most people have to deal with if they intend to live amongst other people.

Pete