Bushcraft accidents research

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Bluffer

Nomad
Apr 12, 2013
464
0
North Yorkshire
My comment ref lack of DIRECT communication with blue responders - 112 or 999 call operators are not blue light responders, they are call centre workers.

But, even they would know that blisters and sunburn rarely pose an imminent threat to life.

Most FAKs simply provide cosmetic items to cover minor injuries.

When did a band-aid save a life? It is for cosmetic reasons.

There are very few 'First Aid' items that can be described as vital or life-saving.

Conversely, when 'holding' a casualty for 1-3 hours it is the 'other stuff' like sleeping bags, water, torches that matter.

It is a logical fallacy to suggest that ... 'icepacks CAN be used to treat heat casualties, THEREFORE I WILL CARRY icepacks'

There are more effective and more accessible 'ways' and 'means' of achieving the same 'end'
 

Quixoticgeek

Full Member
Aug 4, 2013
2,483
23
Europe
My comment ref lack of DIRECT communication with blue responders - 112 or 999 call operators are not blue light responders, they are call centre workers.

Yes, on that I would agree. Tho occasionally you will see that the call is routed through. to the responders.

But, even they would know that blisters and sunburn rarely pose an imminent threat to life.

Most FAKs simply provide cosmetic items to cover minor injuries.

When did a band-aid save a life? It is for cosmetic reasons.

See comments about open wounds in the tropics, and the blood poisoning from the blister. Often these injuries are minor, But, they can be the first step towards the edge of the incident pit.

There are very few 'First Aid' items that can be described as vital or life-saving.

There is a lot to be said for the poor quality of the first aid kits, rather than the fact that what you have in your bag being non life saving. A pair of proper field dressings can be the difference between life and death on some injuries. They aren't in many first aid kits. This is an issue with the first aid kit.

Conversely, when 'holding' a casualty for 1-3 hours it is the 'other stuff' like sleeping bags, water, torches that matter.

Yep, this is true. How many people carry that sleeping bag or torch on a day hike in the dales? A space blanket or survival bag can make a difference. I consider these to be key parts of a FAK.

It is a logical fallacy to suggest that ... 'icepacks CAN be used to treat heat casualties, THEREFORE I WILL CARRY icepacks'

Not at all. I often carry a first aid kit with half a dozen icepacks in it. Not when bushcrafting, this is when doing first aid cover for sports events. But I do carry them. I don't tend to bother when bushcrafting or hiking, I know to adapt and improvise alternatives. It's horses for courses. If you tried to carry something for every eventuality you wouldn't be able to lift your pack, it's about working out the risk, and working out you can in the event of an accident.

There are more effective and more accessible 'ways' and 'means' of achieving the same 'end'

Yes and no. Depends where you are.

Everything in first aid provision comes down to one simple word "Depends". Just like all uk law depends on "reasonable".

Each of us has to work out our acceptable level of risk, and work within that.

Julia
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Tepid water will cool a heat casualty more effectively and more safely than an icepack.

I do this shizzle for real all the time, I know what I'm talking about.

Not really. It helps, that's true. But it's nowhere near as effective. I know what I'm talking about too (I have 3 different 1st Aid certifications: Red Cross, Police 1st Respionder, and military to include instructor level in 2 of those) and we have an awful lot of heat illness here. Both Heat Exhaustion and Heatstroke (they're not the same thing) Anything cooler than the victim's body temp will help (even tepid water) but that's often too little, too late. Yes there's a danger when cooling too quickly with ice (heart attack, etc.) but the risk of not doing it outweighs the risk of using the ice (or chemical cold packs) if you have it. And strategically placed ice packs minimize that risk.
 
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santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
It might also be noted that there's a trend (albeit in it's infancy) now to give an aspirin (which is commonly in even the cheapest commercial 1st Aid kits) to a heart attack victim while waiting for professional help. Proper stats aren't yet available but early anecdotal evidence indicates that it has helped survival rates.

Also ot should be noted that even the cheap commercial kits also contain a PPE mask for giving proper CPR.
 

Bluffer

Nomad
Apr 12, 2013
464
0
North Yorkshire
santaman, no disrespect meant to you, but I am current on this matter ...

You may not find this in your course notes from your service days, but like I said, I know I'm current and I know where my information is from ...
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
santaman, no disrespect meant to you, but I am current on this matter ...

You may not find this in your course notes from your service days, but like I said, I know I'm current and I know where my information is from ...

Here you go, the current protocols for Heatstroke:

[h=2]Heat Stroke: Symptoms and Treatment[/h]
[h=3][/h]Heat stroke is the most serious form of heat injury and is a medical emergency. If you suspect that someone has heat stroke -- also known as sunstroke -- you should call 911 immediately and render first aid until paramedics arrive.
Heat stroke can kill or cause damage to the brain and other internal organs. Although heat stroke mainly affects people over age 50, it also takes a toll on healthy young athletes.
Heat stroke often occurs as a progression from milder heat-related illnesses such as heat cramps, heat syncope (fainting), and heat exhaustion. But it can strike even if you have no previous signs of heat injury.
Heat stroke results from prolonged exposure to high temperatures -- usually in combination with dehydration -- which leads to failure of the body's temperature control system. The medical definition of heat stroke is a core body temperature greater than 105 degrees Fahrenheit, with complications involving the central nervous system that occur after exposure to high temperatures. Other common symptoms include nausea, seizures, confusion, disorientation, and sometimes loss of consciousness or coma.
[h=3]Symptoms of Heat Stroke[/h]The hallmark symptom of heat stroke is a core body temperature above 105 degrees Fahrenheit. But fainting may be the first sign.
Other symptoms may include:
-Throbbing headache
-Dizziness and light-headedness
-Lack of sweating despite the heat
-Red, hot, dry skin
-Muscle weakness or cramps
-Nausea and vomiting
-Rapid heartbeat, which may be either strong or weak
-Rapid, shallow breathing
-Behavioral changes such as disorientation, confusion, or staggering
-Seizures
-Unconsciousness


[h=3]First Aid for Heat Stroke[/h]If you suspect that someone has a heat stroke, immediately call 911 or transport the person to a hospital. Any delay seeking medical help can be fatal.
While waiting for the paramedics to arrive, initiate first aid. Move the person to an air-conditioned environment -- or at least a cool, shady area -- and remove any unnecessary clothing.
If possible, take the person's core body temperature and initiate first aid to cool it to 101 to 102 degrees Fahrenheit. If no thermometers are available, don't hesitate to initiate first aid.
You may also try these cooling strategies:

  • Fan air over the patient while wetting his or her skin with water from a sponge or garden hose.
  • Apply ice packs to the patient's armpits, groin, neck, and back. Because these areas are rich with blood vessels close to the skin, cooling them may reduce body temperature.
  • Immerse the patient in a shower or tub of cool water, or an ice bath.
If emergency response is delayed, call the hospital emergency room for additional instructions.
After you've recovered from heat stroke, you'll probably be more sensitive to high temperatures during the following week. So it's best to avoid hot weather and heavy exercise until your doctor tells you that it's safe to resume your normal activities.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I respect that you are current, but i suspect you're confusing this with the less severe condition of Heat Exhaustion
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
Here's the current protocols for Heat Exhaustion:


Heat Exhaustion
Heat exhaustion is a heat-related illness that can occur after you've been exposed to high temperatures for several days and have become dehydrated.
There are two types of heat exhaustion:

  • Water depletion. Signs include excessive thirst, weakness, headache, and loss of consciousness.
  • Salt depletion. Signs include nausea and vomiting, frequent muscle cramps, and dizziness.
Although heat exhaustion isn't as serious as heat stroke, it isn't something to be taken lightly. Without proper intervention, heat exhaustion can progress to heat stroke, which can damage the brain and other vital organs, and even cause death.

Sympomts of Heat Exhaustion:
-Confusion
-Dark-colored urine (a sign of dehydration)
-Dizziness
-Fainting
-Fatigue
-Headache
-Muscle cramps
-Nausea
-Pale skin
-Profuse sweating
-Rapid heartbeat
[h=3]Treatment for Heat Exhaustion[/h]If you, or anyone else, has symptoms of heat exhaustion, it's essential to immediately get out of the heat and rest, preferably in an air-conditioned room. If you can't get inside, try to find the nearest cool and shady place.
Other recommended strategies include:

  • Drink plenty of fluid (avoid caffeine and alcohol).
  • Remove any tight or unnecessary clothing.
  • Take a cool shower, bath, or sponge bath.
  • Apply other cooling measures such as fans or ice towels.
If such measures fail to provide relief within 30 minutes, contact a doctor because untreated heat exhaustion can progress to heat stroke.
After you've recovered from heat exhaustion, you'll probably be more sensitive to high temperatures during the following week. So it's best to avoid hot weather and heavy exercise until your doctor tells you that it's safe to resume your normal activities.
 

decorum

Full Member
May 2, 2007
5,064
12
Warwickshire
Here's the current protocols for Heat Exhaustion:
Sympomts of Heat Exhaustion:
.
.
.
-Profuse sweating

Here you go, the current protocols for Heatstroke:

Heat Stroke: Symptoms and Treatment

Symptoms of Heat Stroke
.
.
.
-Lack of sweating despite the heat


Santaman, the current protocols you state in two different posts contradict each other.

EDIT: scrap that, missed the switch from exhaustion to stroke ~ full apologies :eek:



I respect that you are current, but i suspect you're confusing this with the less severe condition of Heat Exhaustion

Could it be conceivable that the protocols in the States are different to here in the UK? Honest question as I'm not at all up on 1st Aid, let alone the differences in what's taught in different geographic locations :dunno:
 
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Quixoticgeek

Full Member
Aug 4, 2013
2,483
23
Europe
Could it be conceivable that the protocols in the States are different to here in the UK? Honest question as I'm not at all up on 1st Aid, let alone the differences in what's taught in different geographic locations :dunno:

Undoubtedly. Group to group, country to country, they all change. Even at different levels of training. What is taught to a standard first aider may be 30/2 CPR, yet you will find some ambulance crews doing 100 compression only cpr, before doing any breaths.

In the 18+ years I've been trained in first aid the CPR protocol has changed several times. 15/1 15/2 30/2 etc...

I'm pretty sure that my dutch friend was taught a different cpr protocol to the one I learned most recently.

Julia
 

bambodoggy

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Nov 10, 2004
3,062
50
49
Surrey
www.stumpandgrind.co.uk
Incidentally, the best way to cool someone without removing their protective gear is to sit them down, with each hand/wrist in a bucket or bowl of water.

Very useful for athletes, fire crews, firearms teams, etc, so they can cool down between rapid bursts of activity without having to de-kit.

Good tip buddy, many thanks.....will be using that this summer :) nice one :) (see.....every day really is a school day lol)
 

Bluffer

Nomad
Apr 12, 2013
464
0
North Yorkshire
Hope it's of use, ice is great for physios working on elite athletes, but when used for heat casualties there is a risk of vasoconstriction which would trap the heat in the core area.

Using tepid water you will still get good peripheral bloodflow as well as the cooling effect, that has been studied and observed recently by well paid specialists (not trained chimps like me).

I've effectively cooled casualties in 47-49 degrees C heat without specialist kit, just using a tarp for shade and water at ambient temperature.

I have no doubt that emergency rooms have their own protocols, but pre-hospital emergency care in the field is it's own discipline :)
 

lou1661

Full Member
Jul 18, 2004
2,188
203
Hampshire
Incidentally, the best way to cool someone without removing their protective gear is to sit them down, with each hand/wrist in a bucket or bowl of water.

Very useful for athletes, fire crews, firearms teams, etc, so they can cool down between rapid bursts of activity without having to de-kit.

I have to say that this works and it works fast, you can really feel the heat being sucked out of you when you carry out radial cooling. buckets of water, yet again simple but effective!
 

Oakleaf

Full Member
Jun 6, 2004
331
1
Moray
Just a generalisation - and we all know how dangerous that is! :) But for avoidance of doubt, no comment here is aimed at any one person.

Threads of this nature so often head into what could in 'street terms' be coined as 'My trauma bag's bigger than yours' :)

An open forum performs many useful functions - not least polite debate and the potential to learn - if only by prompting personal research elsewhere. I venture to suggest that 'open' is a key word in this context. The spectrum of readers is likely broad.

Within such a context, relatively high level debates between specialists actually offer little to most lay readers. At worst, they run the risk of fermenting confusion and engendering a First aid Phobia - by which I mean putting people off learning responsible First Aid as they are left feeling its a hugely complex/ fraught topic.

Ultimately - and with huge respect ( despite re-iterating I talk here generally ) - I believe that 'high level' debates are better suited to a separate thread - if not a specialist PHTLS type forum. And in further clarification, I do not venture to suggest that any such participants are doing anything other than writing with sincere conviction.

Just a view.
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
.....Could it be conceivable that the protocols in the States are different to here in the UK? Honest question as I'm not at all up on 1st Aid, let alone the differences in what's taught in different geographic locations :dunno:

Of course it's possible. It's also likely that due to climate differences there are far more cases here.

Undoubtedly. Group to group, country to country, they all change. Even at different levels of training. What is taught to a standard first aider may be 30/2 CPR, yet you will find some ambulance crews doing 100 compression only cpr, before doing any breaths.....

CPR is (as you said) different even from group to group, and ever changing. Particularly as portable defribs are more common for 1st Aider's use.
 

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