Veganism

[PhoneticHalo]

Any others here vegan?
And also what are your views on it? is it possible to be vegan and survive in the bush? is it possible or is veganism a choice only avilable cause of the society we/I live in today.....

 

[gregorach]

It may be possible to survive in the bush as a vegan in other environments, where plant foods are both more varied and widely available (in fact I'm pretty sure it's been done), but I don't think it's possible in the UK. There just isn't enough plant food around for much of the year.

I did once hear of a couple who tried to survive in Scotland on a purely vegan, foraged diet - they ended up with multiple, severe nutritional deficiences. But it's just a second- or third-hand anecdote.

As for my general views on veganism, it's not my cup of tea, but I think it's probably more intellectually respectable than ovo-lacto-vegetarianism, at least given our current agricultural arrangements.

 

[torjusg]

Any others here vegan?
And also what are your views on it? is it possible to be vegan and survive in the bush? is it possible. Of is veganism achoice only avilable cause of the society we/I live in today.....

It is not possible to survive as a vegan in the bush. Veganism is only possible in the society we live in today.

Eating meat is neccesary in the wilds, you will eat pretty much whatever meat you get your hands on. All hunter/gatherer groups did this. Though the ratio of animal foods to vegetable foods changes from about 5% animal foods around equator, to around 95% in the high arctic. The natural diet in Britain would probably be around 50-50.

 

[locum76]

It is not possible to survive as a vegan in the bush. Veganism is only possible in the society we live in today.

Eating meat is neccesary in the wilds, you will eat pretty much whatever meat you get your hands on. All hunter/gatherer groups did this. Though the ratio of animal foods to vegetable foods changes from about 5% animal foods around equator, to around 95% in the high arctic. The natural diet in Britain would probably be around 50-50.

sounds about right to me, if you were to indulge in a little permaculture type growing and cropping in your chosen wilderness you might get away with it though...?

 

[bambodoggy]

Any others here vegan?
And also what are your views on it? is it possible to be vegan and survive in the bush? is it possible or is veganism a choice only avilable cause of the society we/I live in today.....

I'm fairly sure there's a few on here as they've popped up and said Hi before.

I don't see why vegans could not survive in the bush but life is certainly made easier for them in our modern world... and as stated it's unlikely that they would be able to live very far north (or south for that matter).....it may well be possible in the jungle but I honestly just don't know.

When you ask for our views on it do you mean re: survival or just in general? In survival see above sentance and in general.....well, I've never really seen the point personally, I respect living plants as much as I do insects and animals and it's my choice to eat them as and when I need too, I don't rate animals higher than anything else and so they get no special dispensation with regards to eating them and EVERYTHING I eat I am grateful for and respectful towards.
If it floats your boat to cut out certain things (as vegans do) then good for you, as lon as you're happy and don't mind watching me eating everything and anything then everything is cool and the gang

Cheers,

Bam.

 

[Jodie]

I'm not vegan (or vegetarian) but some of my best friends are and they've
introduced me to the marvels of soya milk, alfalfa salad root and pate that
comes in a tube.

I was less impressed with the soya cheese and understood the Simpsons
visual joke when they did an episode featuring Lisa's vegetarianism including
a soya-based snack ("now with gag suppressant").

An omnivorous diet would seem to be the most natural given our dentition,
biochemistry and physiology but I think vegetarianism / veganism is a good
idea - though I like my meaty fry-ups too much

 

[locum76]

I'm not vegan (or vegetarian) but some of my best friends are and they've
introduced me to the marvels of soya milk, alfalfa salad root and pate that
comes in a tube.

that pate that comes in a tube is excellent stuff for camping, its indestructible and is tasty on almost any bread, bannock or oatcake. the only problem is when a tube bursts and oozes over yer kit.

 

[PhoneticHalo]

Being vegan for me is just choice i can make because of where and how i live. i think when it comes down to food, its respect all round! (Meat and Veg)
Think "we" as people have lost that and its sad. while before we would have to think about there place in the world as in this animal eats this animal or this plant and that affect us this way. (or somthing liek that).
But yeah im very animals rights but only cause of the world i live is how it is. not so sure how i would be given a different life style. i just feel sick watching how most food is made. Im all for people getting handson with there food cause it bring a understanding of what it was and what it is.

anyway im for hearing all views on Veganism, but i dont want it to turn heated im not sure right and wrong exist anyway i just go with how i feel as i think we all do ........

 

[JonnyP]

Being vegan for me is just choice i can make because of where and how i live. i think when it comes down to food, its respect all round! (Meat and Veg)
Think "we" as people have lost that and its sad. while before we would have to think about there place in the world as in this animal eats this animal or this plant and that affect us this way. (or somthing liek that).
But yeah im very animals rights but only cause of the world i live is how it is. not so sure how i would be given a different life style. i just feel sick watching how most food is made. Im all for people getting handson with there food cause it bring a understanding of what it was and what it is.

anyway im for hearing all views on Veganism, but i dont want it to turn heated im not sure right and wrong exist anyway i just go with how i feel as i think we all do ........

Good for you, and welcome to the site. I am not vegetarian, but I respect your views.....I also think, because of our changing climate, it may be possible to survive out in the bush on just veg, I have seen so many plants out in the dead of winter....You would need to know what to eat, easiest way to forrage, when to collect etc etc, and it would not be easy, but I do think that with our winters getting milder, it may be possible...I am no expert btw....

 

[torjusg]

I'm fairly sure there's a few on here as they've popped up and said Hi before.

I don't see why vegans could not survive in the bush but life is certainly made easier for them in our modern world... and as stated it's unlikely that they would be able to live very far north (or south for that matter).....it may well be possible in the jungle but I honestly just don't know.

When you ask for our views on it do you mean re: survival or just in general? In survival see above sentance and in general.....well, I've never really seen the point personally, I respect living plants as much as I do insects and animals and it's my choice to eat them as and when I need too, I don't rate animals higher than anything else and so they get no special dispensation with regards to eating them and EVERYTHING I eat I am grateful for and respectful towards.
If it floats your boat to cut out certain things (as vegans do) then good for you, as lon as you're happy and don't mind watching me eating everything and anything then everything is cool and the gang

Cheers,

Bam.

If it is regular camping we are talking about, I don't think veganism poses any problems. Except perhaps slightly lower energy levels due to the lack of the meat (don't know, just assume).

In short term survival it would be foolish to not exploit the extra boost in energy animals provide. In long term survival, it would be a matter of life or death as the body needs a certain vitamin (B12) only found in animals (and a very few plants).

As you move closer to the tropics, the bulk of the energy will usually come from plants and the protein will mostly have the function of filling the nutritional demand for vitamin B12. Even though it would be easier to aquire only plant foods, humans will go to great lengths to get meat, because of this vitamin. But also because animal organs (livers etc...) contain accumulated concentrations of minerals and vitamins which are hard to match from plant sources.

I would in other words conclude, that if someone is to live off the land, it is impossible to ignore meat.

 

[Tadpole]

In long term survival, it would be a matter of life or death as the body needs a certain vitamin (B12) only found in animals (and a very few plants).

As you move closer to the tropics, the bulk of the energy will usually come from plants and the protein will mostly have the function of filling the nutritional demand for vitamin B12. Even though it would be easier to aquire only plant foods, humans will go to great lengths to get meat, because of this vitamin. But also because animal organs (livers etc...) contain accumulated concentrations of minerals and vitamins which are hard to match from plant sources.

I would in other words conclude, that if someone is to live off the land, it is impossible to ignore meat.

Animals get all their b12 from one source, bacteria in the soil. We can do the same. Overly cleaning our food is the reason most modern peoples can in the very long term deficient in b12.
There are two types of b12 active and inactive; the inactive b12 actually prevents the body from utilising the active b12, which is why it is important to carefully selective even when eating fortified foods.

Organically grown foods, and food grown by utilising manure as a fertiliser, contain enough active b12 to maintain the levels in the average person. So far only long term vegan have been know to suffer from deficiencies, as they seem to be less inclined to eat fortified foods. All other minerals and vitamins are easily available from multiple plant food sources, as I posted here,

 

[oldsoldier]

Be careful....

If no one eats the cows, they'll rule the world!!!

 

[torjusg]

Animals get all their b12 from one source, bacteria in the soil. We can do the same. Overly cleaning our food is the reason most modern peoples can in the very long term deficient in b12.
There are two types of b12 active and inactive; the inactive b12 actually prevents the body from utilising the active b12, which is why it is important to carefully selective even when eating fortified foods.

Organically grown foods, and food grown by utilising manure as a fertiliser, contain enough active b12 to maintain the levels in the average person. So far only long term vegan have been know to suffer from deficiencies, as they seem to be less inclined to eat fortified foods. All other minerals and vitamins are easily available from multiple plant food sources, as I posted here,

So, what you are saying is that veganism doesn't work in the very long term? Don't understand fully what you are suggesting.

I think however that the most important point would be that if you are in a survival situation (long or short term) it is foolish not to exploit whatever food resource that is available to you. While plants can be poisonous, cooked meat is always safe. In other words, in an unfamiliar environment it is safer to eat meat rather than plants.

Death comes to us all, to some earlier than others. Life and nature isn't fair and never has been. That is one of the reasons why I don't stress the need for a kill to be absolutely humane either.

 

[Tengu]

Oh thats what I was going to say Torjus, plants can be poisonous but cooked meat wont hurt you.

(Id steer clear of predators livers though.)

You know, hunter gatherers would think us crazy for even considering the idea.

 

[xylaria]

Good on you PhoneticHalo I am not a vegan or a vegetarian, but there is no way enough knowledge in bushcraft when comes to plant and fungi foraging skills, being vegan hopefully will show others that there is more than eating squirrels to bushcraft food.

As you already know we are not carnivors we are primates. As Tadpole said primates are mostly vegetarian.

TVP nasty stuff though it, it is good back pack food, as it light and doesnt go off. Soya milk doesn't turn like moo moo juice when not refridgerated.
Dried fungi are 35% protien. Wild fungi are advailble for about 9 months of the year. Vitamin B12 is also present in some species of fungi naturally!!
Carbohydrates are hard graft whether you eat meat or not, and has always been the thralls job to process starch in to flours. IMHO cattail is the one easiest bush starchs.
Sugars are pretty easy in the form of fruit. but again are not advailable through out the year but like fungi dry very well.
Fats are very difficult to find in our climate as natural nut harvests are normally to sparce to sustain enough fats for a whole year. Processing seed oils like flax is hard work and I honestly think that would be more calores to harvest than you would get from consuming the product.

Basically IMVHO you can be a vegan bushcrafter and live off land in Britain without animal products but does take a very advanced level of knowledge of native plants and lots of season planning.

 

[PhoneticHalo]

So, what you are saying is that veganism doesn't work in the very long term? Don't understand fully what you are suggesting.

I think however that the most important point would be that if you are in a survival situation (long or short term) it is foolish not to exploit whatever food resource that is available to you. While plants can be poisonous, cooked meat is always safe. In other words, in an unfamiliar environment it is safer to eat meat rather than plants.

Death comes to us all, to some earlier than others. Life and nature isn't fair and never has been. That is one of the reasons why I don't stress the need for a kill to be absolutely humane either.

Hmmmm...
i think you find it easy to think like that as you eat animals. if your were in a survial siituation would you see humans as foolish not to exploit? heheh i hope not. But again im sure it all depends on the situation.
And the reason to kill animals in humane ways is cause animals feel pain! and out respect i feel. And as for life and nature not being fair? I think its what you make it? I think if any pepoele can make it fair its us as humans we seem to have all the power. or maybe nature does... im not sure lol
But im much for popele killing there own food. cause a least the animals get a life and the reality of death is understood.

 

[madrussian]

And the reason to kill animals in humane ways is cause animals feel pain! and out respect i feel.

You sure plants don't feel pain? I thought for sure that was screams I heard everytime I throw them into a hot frying pan with a little olive oil, butter and seasoning.

 

[mayfly]

My diet is one that I think is called flexitarianism (according ot Wikipedia it is anyway!), that is, a diet that consists primarily of vegetarian food, but that allows occasional exceptions, usually on high days and holidays The main driver for this is my family, most of whom are vegetarian.

I think one issue with a strict vegan approach to Bushcraft is the removal of the use of any animal by-products, notably leather for knife sheaths, pouches, strops, boots and clothing. I realise you can get by without leather products, but the alternatives are usually synthetic and arguably less in tune with a "back to nature" Bushcraft mentality. Personally, I find there is aesthetic appeal in quality leather (and other natural materials like wool and wood) goods and I try to always use them over synthetic materials.

But on strict diet grounds I agree with the consensus here that in a temperate or tropical climate you can get pretty far without any animal products. It certainly should be no real hindrance to doing Bushcraft in UK

Chris

 

[torjusg]

The thing is that wild plants are to a great deal seasonal in the UK, so you would have to stockpile lots and lots of veggies for the low seasons. I am pretty sure that, of this reason, non-agricultural veganism is absolutely impossible. The reason is that since much of the fresh food for current consumption and stockpiling will be scattered about carrying the stockpile around with you in the quantities needed is impossible.

One would have to be extremely cautious not to expend more energy than one consume, wandering about for the relatively low-energy plant food will make that impossible. Also, considering pregnancies where you need to build up body fat, this will require foods with a high energy input to output ratio. Also, the increasing lack of mobility would remove the ability to do the neccesary food migrations. With a high energy input of meat, which can be brought from a distance more easily and also sustain you during the travelling, the woman would be able to complete the pregnancy.

So, if the consensus is that temperate, long term vegan survival is possible, the consensus is wrong. It may be possible for a few months in the prime seasons, but several years all seasons it isn't.

Though some pieces will go in plus, the total energy calculation in regards to veganism will end up in minus, which does not sustain life.

I would even argue that this will be the case in the tropics, as long as a degree of agriculture isn't established.

-----

About human flesh, I guess in the instances where there are dead people laying around and you have no choice one would consume their bodies. But most (the sane) would rather have the live ones as companions. But that is an entirely different debate.

 

[Tadpole]

So, what you are saying is that veganism doesn't work in the very long term? Don't understand fully what you are suggesting.

No I am not saying that and I think you know it. Long term vegans have been the ones who have shown deficiencies due to poor diet choices. I’ll spell this out as simply as I can. Unless you are very careful to eat a wide selection of B12 rich vegetables, pulses, and yeast which is rich in b12 you can suffer from dietary problems. You can say the same of people who only eat rabbit meat, eventually they will suffer.

Death comes to us all, to some earlier than others. Life and nature isn't fair and never has been. That is one of the reasons why I don't stress the need for a kill to be absolutely humane either.

As for death I agree, and over the last 10 years the evidence is growing that eating a diet with a high proportion of meat, will kill you a lot faster than a diet that contain a higher proportion of vegetables. Vegetarians who eat a balanced diet live longer and suffer less serious illness than meat eaters who eat a balanced diet. which is why i'm not to worried about people eating meat, as you say life is not fair, if meat eaters suffer as much as the meat they eat so be it.