The Purpose of Humans?

[BorderReiver]

Why is it impossible? In fact where i worked with gamekeepers, they judged the winter to come on the trees production of berries. The heavier the crop, the more severe/long the winter. From experience it generally holds true.

How about "the heavier the crop, the more favourable the growing season" ?

Makes a wee bit more sense.

 

[firecrest]

it was going to end up like this eventually....

 

[gregorach]

I have a very hard time believing that the entire genetic code of the biosphere is really just the preserved record of randomly occurring beneficial mutations, ie mistakes in the code that somehow wrote in coherent information.

I have a hard time believing that anyone thinks this is a valid argument. Your belief or lack thereof is entirely irrelevant to the actual nature of reality.

 

[Pict]

gregorach,

Is it an argument or a statement of personal belief regarding the OP question as to if humans have a purpose or not?

When I look at the world I see beauty, order, complexity, balance, purpose, design, intelligence, grace, love, and meaning. I find that those things make life worth living and I have no problem intellectually believing that behind it all is a transcendent creator God who made us and everything else with a purpose. Furthermore I believe that I will be the most happy in life if I am on board with that purpose.

This has nothing to do with politics or forcing you to change what you believe or how you order your own life. That's just the way I see it. I believe that the universe is a beautiful place and exists for a reason. The OP asked if there is a purpose for humans. It seems that the only acceptable answers would be no, or we can't know. I believe that we do have a purpose and we can both know it and fulfill it.

I knew full well when I posted that, that I walked up and kicked the Zeitgeist in the nads. I'm OK with that too. Mac

 

[gregorach]

You are entirely welcome to believe what you like. I'm just saying that (a) an argument based on your own personal spiritual beliefs is extremely unlikely to convince anybody who does not share those beliefs, and (b) the argument from personal incredulity is a logical fallacy.

As far as my beliefs are concerned, the question in the OP is "not even wrong" . Purpose is a narrative concept. To ask whether humans have an intrinsic purpose is simply meaningless.

 

[BorderReiver]

Ach,this is just another one of those pointless (from a bushcraft perspective) threads that wind everyone up and can go nowhere.

 

[firecrest]

Ach,this is just another one of those pointless (from a bushcraft perspective) threads that wind everyone up and can go nowhere.

yep. Time we had a...

 

[HillBill]

Apocryphal anecdotal "evidence" which does not hold up to any kind of study. Its, as I said, reactive to many other factors, rather than predictive actions.
Not a "Guesstimation" just simple facts, some areas of the world have a ratio of 1 ounce of gold per 5.8 ounces silver and some have 1 ounce of gold per 17 ounces of silver.
I guess that kind of proves that you really don’t understand the subject of which you spake.

I thought i posted something earlier, obviously not, hold on.

There you go....from here http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_04/hommel080104.html

This brings me to the next key difference. In refined form above ground, such as in bars & coins, silver is more rare than gold! Few realize or know this!

How much gold is there? It is said that 95% of all gold mined in the history of the world continues to be held by mankind. How much is this? According to the World Gold Counsel, the world has mined 145,000 metric tonnes by the end of 2001. If we add the 2500 tonnes per year through the end of 2003, it's 150,000 metric tonnes, or 4.82 billion ounces. See link: http://www.gold.org/discover/knowledge/faqs/index.html If 95% if that gold is still with us, that's 4.58 billion ounces of gold in the world. (That includes gold jewelry.) Another way to say it is that mankind holds about 50 years' worth of mine supply of gold.

Now, how much silver is there? According to the two industry silver surveys by the silverinstitute and the cpmgroup, the mankind has about 250 million ounces to up to 650 million ounces of silver. (Those numbers do not include silver jewelry.) If we use the larger number, there is about seven times as much gold in the world as silver! (Another way to say it is that mankind holds less than one year's mine supply of silver.)

Do a search mate. Dunno where your info comes from.

Your not understanding comment is false old lad.

 

[HillBill]

I have a hard time believing that anyone thinks this is a valid argument. Your belief or lack thereof is entirely irrelevant to the actual nature of reality.

And of course you can prove it is random? Or do you just believe it is?

 

[BOD]

Someone please enlighten the ignorant.

What is this OP?

The only OP I know is of hours of boring discomfort waiting to see some thing.

 

[HillBill]

yep. Time we had a...

Its time people stop saying what should or shouldn't happen in a thread they may not approve of and jumping on people for having opinions they don't share.

Elitism anyone?

 

[HillBill]

Someone please enlighten the ignorant.

What is this OP?

The only OP I know is of hours of boring discomfort waiting to see some thing.

Original post/poster

 

[HillBill]

How about "the heavier the crop, the more favourable the growing season" ?

Makes a wee bit more sense.

It would if the years where i was told about it had a good growing season. Only thing was though it wasn't, it was when it rained all summer (about 5 years ago) and lots upon lots of crops failed.

I know, i was one of the people who had to rush in what we could get at harvest.

I take it from a lot of these replies that lots of people don't have the first clue about natural cycles and nature in general. I see human superiority complex's in many replies.

 

[Pict]

Gregorach,

I was just stating my belief as to if we have a purpose. I believe you have intrinsic worth.

From a bushcraft perspective I think this question is entirely valid. I never feel more human than when I'm closest to what I see as our original context.

As a kid growing up in Pennsylvania I used to lay out in the yard and stare at the stars. My black lab would sit there and stare at me. Every so often I would reach out and nudge her chin up so she could see the stars. The moment I took my hand away her head would drop to stare at me again.

Years later I was getting my 9 month old daughter out of the car at the mountain house. It was a cold winter night and the stars were out in force. I stood there holding my little girl and she was looking at me. Remembering my lab, I gently nudged my daughter's chin upwards to see the stars. Her head stayed up and she looked from one end of the sky to the other. It was majestic and she saw it too.

So there I was, nine months into being a dad for the first time, my evolutionary biological imperative fulfilled, colorblindness and premature gray hair passed on for posterity, end of story. As humans we are distinct upon the earth and have capacities far different from any other living (creature/random organism). So let me have my fantasy, we matter, we mean something. Where is it written "Thou shall not gaze in wonder at the majesty surrounding you." Mac

 

[Tadpole]

Now, how much silver is there? According to the two industry silver surveys by the silverinstitute and the cpmgroup, the mankind has about 250 million ounces to up to 650 million ounces of silver. (Those numbers do not include silver jewelry.) If we use the larger number, there is about seven times as much gold in the world as silver! (Another way to say it is that mankind holds less than one year's mine supply of silver.)

Do a search mate. Dunno where your info comes from.

Your not understanding comment is false old lad.

Wrong and by a huge margin
Total silver production from pre-history till 2001 is estimated by the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) to have been about 1.26 million metric tons (Mt), one half of which was mined in the last 62 year period."

http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2004/1251/2004-1251.pdf

Your not understanding comment is false old lad.

Clearly not

 

[gregorach]

And of course you can prove it is random? Or do you just believe it is?

Depends what you mean by "prove" and "random"... I certainly don't think the universe is random, but that doesn't imply a teleological purpose. The so-called "random" numbers produced by the typical computer program aren't actually random, but they don't mean anything either. And rigorous "proof" is impossible outside of mathematics and formal logic - and even then, it's limited by Gödel's incompleteness theorem. I can't even really "prove" that the universe exists at all. However, since it appears to, I'm prepared to make some working assumptions so that I can get on with living in it.

As I see it, the null hypothesis is that the world is exactly what it appears to be, no more, no less, and with no special magic going on in the background. If you want me to reject that null hypothesis, then the burden of proof is on the claimant. If you want me to accept some kind of supernatural explanation, you're going to have to give me a pretty good explanation of (a) why it is necessary, and (b) why your supernatural explanation is better than all the other supernatural explanations other people have proposed throughout human history. So far, nobody has been able to do either to my satisfaction.

I am an empiricist and a philosophical naturalist. Given that no-one has convincingly demolished either of those positions, despite a great deal of effort over several centuries by some of the finest thinkers humanity has ever produced, I doubt you're going to be able to convince me that they're wrong in this thread.

However, I am prepared to respect your right to your own beliefs, however wrong I may think they are. Are you prepared to reciprocate?

 

[HillBill]

Wrong and by a huge margin
Total silver production from pre-history till 2001 is estimated by the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS) to have been about 1.26 million metric tons (Mt), one half of which was mined in the last 62 year period."

Clearly not

Show me your info source. It won't matter though if your correct then the official figures say both. Can't be both though.

 

[Tadpole]

Show me your info source. It won't matter though if your correct then the official figures say both. Can't be both though.

Can you try and explain that more clearly. I'm [my figures] correct, and your figures are not correct, simples

 

[gregorach]

Gregorach,

I was just stating my belief as to if we have a purpose. I believe you have intrinsic worth.

From a bushcraft perspective I think this question is entirely valid. I never feel more human than when I'm closest to what I see as our original context.

As a kid growing up in Pennsylvania I used to lay out in the yard and stare at the stars. My black lab would sit there and stare at me. Every so often I would reach out and nudge her chin up so she could see the stars. The moment I took my hand away her head would drop to stare at me again.

Years later I was getting my 9 month old daughter out of the car at the mountain house. It was a cold winter night and the stars were out in force. I stood there holding my little girl and she was looking at me. Remembering my lab, I gently nudged my daughter's chin upwards to see the stars. Her head stayed up and she looked from one end of the sky to the other. It was majestic and she saw it too.

So there I was, nine months into being a dad for the first time, my evolutionary biological imperative fulfilled, colorblindness and premature gray hair passed on for posterity, end of story. As humans we are distinct upon the earth and have capacities far different from any other living (creature/random organism). So let me have my fantasy, we matter, we mean something. Where is it written "Thou shall not gaze in wonder at the majesty surrounding you." Mac

I believe all life has intrinsic worth too, as far as that term has any meaning. And I very much believe in "gaz[ing] in wonder at the majesty surrounding you." However, to paraphrase Douglas Adams, I think one can appreciate that the garden is beautiful without insisting that there are faeries at the bottom of it.

"Meaning" and "worth" are human concepts. In addition to being an empiricist and a philosophical naturalist, I am also a humanist.

I matter to me, and to a lot of other people who know me. That's good enough - I don't need to feel that I matter to the universe at large.

However, as I have said several times already, I really don't mind what you (or anyone else) believes - as long as you don't try and impose it on other people. I'm far more concerned with what people do than what they think.

 

[HillBill]

Depends what you mean by "prove" and "random"... I certainly don't think the universe is random, but that doesn't imply a teleological purpose. The so-called "random" numbers produced by the typical computer program aren't actually random, but they don't mean anything either. And rigorous "proof" is impossible outside of mathematics and formal logic - and even then, it's limited by Gödel's incompleteness theorem. I can't even really "prove" that the universe exists at all. However, since it appears to, I'm prepared to make some working assumptions so that I can get on with living in it.

As I see it, the null hypothesis is that the world is exactly what it appears to be, no more, no less, and with no special magic going on in the background. If you want me to reject that null hypothesis, then the burden of proof is on the claimant. If you want me to accept some kind of supernatural explanation, you're going to have to give me a pretty good explanation of (a) why it is necessary, and (b) why your supernatural explanation is better than all the other supernatural explanations other people have proposed throughout human history. So far, nobody has been able to do either to my satisfaction.

I am an empiricist and a philosophical naturalist. Given that no-one has convincingly demolished either of those positions, despite a great deal of effort over several centuries by some of the finest thinkers humanity has ever produced, I doubt you're going to be able to convince me that they're wrong in this thread.

However, I am prepared to respect your right to your own beliefs, however wrong I may think they are. Are you prepared to reciprocate?

Of course

For the record i don't go with the supernatural side of things. Only the everything has a role to play stance, though i do not claim to know what they are exactly.