Legal issues uk

[Hawk]

Very true, I like where I am but miss Wales

 

[Toddy]

Part of carrying the epi-pen is to explain it's function, and when to use it, to nearest and dearest (and usual camping companions ) and work colleagues. That's written on the guidelines in the pack.
The guidelines are very, very, clear.
Intentionally so, since in need, no one needs panic or inability to administer the thing effectively.

Is this not the same with inhalers ? or the necessary medication for diabetes ?

cheers,
M

 

[santaman2000]

Part of carrying the epi-pen is to explain it's function, and when to use it, to nearest and dearest (and usual camping companions ) and work colleagues. That's written on the guidelines in the pack.
The guidelines are very, very, clear.
Intentionally so, since in need, no one needs panic or inability to administer the thing effectively.

Is this not the same with inhalers ? or the necessary medication for diabetes ?

cheers,
M

Not with injectable diabetes meds Mary. They're generally not an emergency thing (Insulin, Victoza, Byetta) They're a regular thing taken on a schedule to keep your glucose levels under control.

The emergency procedures are for when either you under-eat after taking them or if (while on a new regime of meds) they work overly well and your glucose levels crash. In that case the the procedure is to eat or drink something sweet immediately or get immediate medical attention. There are no self administered (or 1st aider allowed) glucose shots allowed here. Not sure about para-medics though.

I think we may be unfairly hounding Hawk in that respect. I cain't tell from his profile what his profession is; if he's a para-medic, he may well have more authority to administer drugs than we; my mother was an RN and kept a corresponding stock of supplies at home for emergencies (we lived in the country about 20 miles from the nearest DR. or ER) That said, I don't think it's a good idea to advise the majority of us (who don't have that authority) to plan and stock to do so.

 

[santaman2000]

Diabetics self administer santamen.

I read somewhere last week that you will be able to buy Ventolin Evohalers 'over the counter' and Supermarkets will be selling them at about £7 each.

Thanks Rik. That's good news, I hope to be able will be able to return to visit the UK sometime without breaking any laws.

 

[santaman2000]

...It was you that said you would like a snake bite kit I was just showing its not current practice. If you know they are out of fashion why did you say you wanted one...

I said I wanted a "snakebit kit," not that I wanted the 20 year old version.

 

[boatman]

The emergency procedures are for when either you under-eat after taking them or if (while on a new regime of meds) they work overly well and your glucose levels crash. In that case the the procedure is to eat or drink something sweet immediately or get immediate medical attention. There are no self administered (or 1st aider allowed) glucose shots allowed here. Not sure about para-medics though.

That was one of my points. It is nonsense to elaborate on what you might be allowed to possess or administer and real first aid. Anti-venom, dramatic, elevate the limb and resting not mentioned and far more practical, hmmmm.

 

[santaman2000]

That was one of my points. It is nonsense to elaborate on what you might be allowed to possess or administer and real first aid. Anti-venom, dramatic, elevate the limb and resting not mentioned and far more practical, hmmmm.

Elevate the limb is for bleeding; with a snakebite you want to do the opposite. The idea is to SLOW or PREVENT venom from getting to the organs.

 

[boatman]

Elevate the limb is for bleeding; with a snakebite you want to do the opposite. The idea is to SLOW or PREVENT venom from getting to the organs.

Oops, thought that as soon as I posted. SO DO NOT TAKE MEDICAL ADVICE FROM THE INTERNET would seem the best plan.

 

[Toddy]

Sorry Hawk, we've rather taken your thread on a side road

Snake bites though......there's only really adders in the UK (we need Jon to chip in on this thread), and as far as I know you really need to be unlucky to react badly to a bite from one. I don't even recall snake bite being mentioned in first aid courses here.
Off the top of my head I'd keep the victim as still and calm as I could and get medical assistance as quickly as possible, but what if the incident happened out on the moor or hill ? to one of us ? We'd probably try to walk out. Should we ?

cheers,
M

p.s Hawk, if you'd prefer I can tidy up this thread and start another with the removed bits, but the conversation is interesting and informative.
M

 

[Hawk]

That's fine Im sure our American colleagues know more about snake bites than me.

I'm interested in what kinds of snake bite kits are available, what they contain and how effective they are. Other than anti-venom that is.

So carry on

 

[carabao]

For snake bite I was taught compression bandage and raise the limb, and case vac as soon as. Is that correct

 

[abominable_scouse_monster]

Hawk, we are taught quite clearly on first aid courses that administering an epi pen must only be done with an epi pen prescribed for that individual.
They aren't a common component of workplace first aid kits. School nurses don't hold them in store for children or staff; the individual carries their own.

This is why I queried what you had written.

Toddy

Depends on the work place tbh, I work for a Car Manufacturer and we have a fully Medical Unit on site with a fully qualified doctor per shift and nursing staff but all areas have a first aid kit on the line every 3/4 stantions apart and I do belive they have pens but only some members of staff are trained to administer them, In schools it's a whole other kettle of fish.

My Mum was a Teacher and also a first-aider, and they where told cut's etc plaster anything else call the nurse and ambulance if needed. Teachers live in a legal limbo they are guardians upto a point and then after that they are in trouble unless it's proved that it was fully in the best interests of the child or the parent or guardian can not be reached. And again there is a exemption to that I believe it stems from a situation like this:

Child on a school trip has a accident, and needs a blood transfusion to live while the parent or guardian is out of reach. Teacher says yes and the transfusion is performed and the child survives while legally the Teacher was doing there lawful duty in protecting a child's welfare they might have broken the faith of the student / students parents by doing so, they are unhappy about this and talk to a solicitor who knows that legally from a child protection standpoint you are fine but from a Ethical (read anti-discrimination law) you could be in hot water. This can lead to Civil court action that could cripple you or the local education authority.

To the OP, that is a good list and good basic grounding.

 

[Toddy]

Do you think you could actually check those first aid kits ?

As I said earlier, the epi pen is the last resort. I could see the Doctor having access to one, but not in a standard factory FAkit.

I have good reason to ask; the pharmacy who do an automatic delivery of my repeat prescription got well and truly confused. Right now I have five, in date, epi-pens................and a new pharmacy

Parental religious sensibilites can be difficult to negotiate for teachers. I believe such details are clearly described/constrained on permission forms before every outing. They certainly are with any school I have worked with.
I don't know how the medical profession would deal with such an incident but I can't see them demanding that the teacher take responsibility in a full blown emergency.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[santaman2000]

For snake bite I was taught compression bandage and raise the limb, and case vac as soon as. Is that correct

No on the first 2 points.

1.Do NOT raise the limb; it should be kept lower than the organs to slow or prevent venom reaching said organs. Raising the limb is to control bleeding and has nothing to do with snakebites.
2. A compression strap (between the bite and the organs) yes but not a compression bandage on the bite per se.
3. Evac ASAP, yes
4. Cleanse the bite with soapy water.

* Not neccessarily in the order given.

 

[santaman2000]

That's fine Im sure our American colleagues know more about snake bites than me.

I'm interested in what kinds of snake bite kits are available, what they contain and how effective they are. Other than anti-venom that is.

So carry on

What's available varies widely (there are still some of the obsolete kits we discussed on the market) but the better ones (and you can make your own) include wet-wipes to cleanse the bite and surgical tubing or similar to make a constrictor band (NOT a tournequit)

Anti-venom is not in kits but will be at certain medical facilities (not all) Unfortunately it is also somewhat rare. It is expensive and has a short shelf life and difficult to predict which species a victim will be bitten by, so stockpiling it is dificult; even more so than blood. As snakebites aren't anywhere near as common as accidents requiring blood, it's usually unavailable or has to be brought from a distant location. I suppose that might not be the case in the UK as you only need stock anti-venom for a single species? And likely even MORE dificult for countries such as Australia?

I vaguely remember reading a few years ago that sombody was working on a synthetic antivenom that might solve some of these issues.

 

[santaman2000]

Do you think you could actually check those first aid kits ?

As I said earlier, the epi pen is the last resort. I could see the Doctor having access to one, but not in a standard factory FAkit.

I have good reason to ask; the pharmacy who do an automatic delivery of my repeat prescription got well and truly confused. Right now I have five, in date, epi-pens................and a new pharmacy

Parental religious sensibilites can be difficult to negotiate for teachers. I believe such details are clearly described/constrained on permission forms before every outing. They certainly are with any school I have worked with.
I don't know how the medical profession would deal with such an incident but I can't see them demanding that the teacher take responsibility in a full blown emergency.

cheers,
Toddy

Over here the teacher's responsibility ends when the child is delivered to medical professionals. If the parent or guardians cain't be reached for permission (or if there isn't a presigned form) then the responsibility to decide falls on the medical staff.

 

[Toddy]

That strikes me as eminently practical.

cheers,
M

 

[abominable_scouse_monster]

Do you think you could actually check those first aid kits ?

As I said earlier, the epi pen is the last resort. I could see the Doctor having access to one, but not in a standard factory FAkit.

I have good reason to ask; the pharmacy who do an automatic delivery of my repeat prescription got well and truly confused. Right now I have five, in date, epi-pens................and a new pharmacy

Parental religious sensibilites can be difficult to negotiate for teachers. I believe such details are clearly described/constrained on permission forms before every outing. They certainly are with any school I have worked with.
I don't know how the medical profession would deal with such an incident but I can't see them demanding that the teacher take responsibility in a full blown emergency.

cheers,
Toddy

Not a problem, I will check as I have my yearly medical next week but I am going off the 574 page site handbook that has the info in it. My GF is a Doctor so I will ask her too if you like, infact i'll txt her the thread now.

Having said that I do know last year a dude on the fluid fill line had a reaction to a spill and the GL gave him a eppy pen (I was there when it happened), so unless they changed the law or rules I am going to go with give it if you have the training.

 

[Native Nathan]

Not with injectable diabetes meds Mary. They're generally not an emergency thing (Insulin, Victoza, Byetta) They're a regular thing taken on a schedule to keep your glucose levels under control.

The emergency procedures are for when either you under-eat after taking them or if (while on a new regime of meds) they work overly well and your glucose levels crash. In that case the the procedure is to eat or drink something sweet immediately or get immediate medical attention. There are no self administered (or 1st aider allowed) glucose shots allowed here. Not sure about para-medics though.

So to clarify would it be OK to give a diabetic Glucose tablets like Dextrose or locosade tablets both of which can be bought in ASDA
I am asking because thi is what I was taught, but that was a while ago, and as some one else stated one of the aims of first aid is to do no harm?

 

[santaman2000]

So to clarify would it be OK to give a diabetic Glucose tablets like Dextrose or locosade tablets both of which can be bought in ASDA
I am asking because thi is what I was taught, but that was a while ago, and as some one else stated one of the aims of first aid is to do no harm?

Yes, If you have them. Technically they're not drugs, they're a food (sugar in pill form) In my experience though, not many people carry them unles they are diabetic. That said, sweet liquids work better (quicker) than solid foods or glucose tablets. I try to keep a juice box or three nearby (the type you'd pack in a child's lunch; apple or orange juice) Only needed any of it once since I was diagnosed about 15 years ago.