fasting vs foraging
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I read Ranalph Fiens Bio(without getting up and finding the book I think that's how his name is spelt) I know it's not bushcraft but on the same lines of nutrition and burning calories. even though he was taking in loads of calories. because of the scale of work he was expecting his body to do, he was loosing body mass not just fat on his polar treks and when he did the 7x7x7
Hmm I fell onto this thread while researching info for the survival book I am writing.
There has been a lot of research done on ketosis genesis, starvation, fasting for medical benefits etc. To site all the different papers would take some, Mors Kochanski has much enlightening information and research in this area of survival and I have spent many days with him discussing this matter. My friend Stuart Goring wrote a general article on this matter which I am sure he has published somewhere on Bushcraft UK.
But let me introduce some of the high lighted, very basic, and piece meal notes in my book(cut and paste),
A man weighing 65kg requires 1600 calories a day to satisfy the energy requirement to exist with very little movement e.g. sleep, sit with basic metabolic function.
In brief a Calorie is correctly called a Kilocalorie so 1,000 calories = 1 kilocalorie, but is just normally called a calorie.
So this said man of 65kg will require 1600 calories absolute bare minimum to survive with 500 calories of that required in carbohydrates.
A rule of thumb is that if you cannot harvest/hunt 1600 cal's of food (with 500 cal's in carbs) when surviving you would most likely be better of fasting.
Introduction of small unbalanced meals at intermittent periods that do not account for your overall food intake, over 24 hours, could well upset the bodies process of fasting. Shortening your survival period without food which could be up to 40 days.
It is essential that when surviving all our meals are balanced with a correct amount of protein, fat and carb intake.
Examples of when this does not happen is when we refer to rabbit poisoning where rabbits that are very high in protein are eaten, this lean protein (deficient in very much natural fat) demands excessive amounts of our fat and carbs reserve to digest. Which in laymen's term's would accelerate our starvation and shorten our survival window without food.
Most people would be better off sleeping, resting staying warm and drinking water.
There has been a lot of research done on ketosis genesis, starvation, fasting for medical benefits etc. To site all the different papers would take some, Mors Kochanski has much enlightening information and research in this area of survival and I have spent many days with him discussing this matter. My friend Stuart Goring wrote a general article on this matter which I am sure he has published somewhere on Bushcraft UK.
But let me introduce some of the high lighted, very basic, and piece meal notes in my book(cut and paste),
A man weighing 65kg requires 1600 calories a day to satisfy the energy requirement to exist with very little movement e.g. sleep, sit with basic metabolic function.
In brief a Calorie is correctly called a Kilocalorie so 1,000 calories = 1 kilocalorie, but is just normally called a calorie.
So this said man of 65kg will require 1600 calories absolute bare minimum to survive with 500 calories of that required in carbohydrates.
A rule of thumb is that if you cannot harvest/hunt 1600 cal's of food (with 500 cal's in carbs) when surviving you would most likely be better of fasting.
Introduction of small unbalanced meals at intermittent periods that do not account for your overall food intake, over 24 hours, could well upset the bodies process of fasting. Shortening your survival period without food which could be up to 40 days.
It is essential that when surviving all our meals are balanced with a correct amount of protein, fat and carb intake.
Examples of when this does not happen is when we refer to rabbit poisoning where rabbits that are very high in protein are eaten, this lean protein (deficient in very much natural fat) demands excessive amounts of our fat and carbs reserve to digest. Which in laymen's term's would accelerate our starvation and shorten our survival window without food.
Most people would be better off sleeping, resting staying warm and drinking water.
One factor only partly brought out of this discussion is the need to maintain a fire for warmth and to make water potable. These will probably add significantly to the calorific input required for the body. If you are having no food at all these deficits could have a major impact on the balance under consideration. There is also the morale aspect - those of you who did the journeyman will almost certainly have experienced the highs and lows associated with whether you find food or not. I certainly felt and functioned better on the days I ate.
Forestwalker, in saying that you had a low caloric intake for a number of days and generally felt ok and recovered quickly, are you not lending support to the conclusion of the trial? How would you have been on a zero caloric intake - would you have fared quite so well? It struck me that you have criticised the report for having small group sizes etc, and then quoted your own personal experience as superior evidence. That said, I understand that personal experience is a powerful persuader. Personally I take the view that, even if the report is open to some criticism, it seems to be the best available so far and it does not mean that it should be superceded by opinion based on even less formal evidence. As for the known health risks associated with putting one's body in a state of ketosis, when for the sake of getting some cat-tail or other carbs one can "burn fat in a carbohydrate flame" as a previous poster puts it, I would put myself firmly in the "take what you can get" camp. Of course this does not detract from the advice of refraining from eating if you can't get water. Its a personal choice, I suppose, so the best we can do is point the OP in the direction of the best evidence and let them decide for themselves.
Forestwalker, in saying that you had a low caloric intake for a number of days and generally felt ok and recovered quickly, are you not lending support to the conclusion of the trial? How would you have been on a zero caloric intake - would you have fared quite so well? It struck me that you have criticised the report for having small group sizes etc, and then quoted your own personal experience as superior evidence. That said, I understand that personal experience is a powerful persuader. Personally I take the view that, even if the report is open to some criticism, it seems to be the best available so far and it does not mean that it should be superceded by opinion based on even less formal evidence. As for the known health risks associated with putting one's body in a state of ketosis, when for the sake of getting some cat-tail or other carbs one can "burn fat in a carbohydrate flame" as a previous poster puts it, I would put myself firmly in the "take what you can get" camp. Of course this does not detract from the advice of refraining from eating if you can't get water. Its a personal choice, I suppose, so the best we can do is point the OP in the direction of the best evidence and let them decide for themselves.
I just re-read the OP's question. Please ignore the part of my comment above about cat-tail as that was ruled out in his/her situation description.
Very interesting thread this, great read.
Can you actually prove that? Why wouldn't your body be able to switch between digeting fat and muscles, and digesting the small bites of food you foraged?
Can you actually prove that? Why wouldn't your body be able to switch between digeting fat and muscles, and digesting the small bites of food you foraged?
Mike Stroud talked about the weight loss on his trips with Fiennes and basically they needed more energy than the body could process regardless how much they ate, easier for the body to draw on its own reserves hence the weight loss. There is a limit, can't remember without digging the book out but the body can only process something like 10k cals a day sort of thing even when (as they did) were eating butter as a food suppliment.
Another major problem when foraging, certainly in the UK is you can use more energy gathering than the food found provides.
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Ever tried to dig up a burdock root in summer in hard clay ground? Not gonna happen that root said
I don't know the science behind it but personally I'd forage for the psychological benefit of doing something instead of sitting around feeling sorry for myself...
Elen Sentier
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Me too on the ridiculous 'Man vs Food' progs !!! To sidetrack into "preppers" this thread shows just how much more improtant knowledge is over shed-fulls of cans.
As a diabetic (type 2) I have to be careful and so am always interested in wildfood sources. At home, normally, I eat a meat/protein diet with greens, and some carbs but not a massive amount, with very good body-effects. I'm always interested in hunter-gatherer diets and want to get closer to that, see how the body likes it. If I was out in the wild I would definitely forage - I would die else as I cannot do starve-diets with the diabetes. As a type 2 I would at least have a good chance of living without the insulin if I could get the foraging right - learning in progress
Elen Sentier
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
This is an excellent thread. Firelite, can you expound at all on hunter-gatherer diets? These of course depend on knowledge of the environment where the people live but the people do and always did live well. It seems we've lost all that with farming and packaged meals, etc, but it would be so good to relearn. Can't afford RM's or PK's courses at the mo unfortunately
But to do something to make yourself feel better doesn't nessecarily mean foraging. You could keep busy improving your shelter, gathering firewood and preparing signal fires.
This is an excellent thread. Firelite, can you expound at all on hunter-gatherer diets? These of course depend on knowledge of the environment where the people live but the people do and always did live well. It seems we've lost all that with farming and packaged meals, etc, but it would be so good to relearn. Can't afford RM's or PK's courses at the mo unfortunately
Elen you don't necessarily need to go on a course to learn about wild foods as a great deal can be learnt from books, blogs and the forum. It's worth getting a copy of Richard Mabey's Food for Free or Roger Philips's Wild Food along with a couple of field guides and just get out in the countryside.
The benefit of a course is that an instructor can check you haven't picked anything harmful by accident and introduce foraging in a controlled way. I will happily try new foods but always carryout proper research before hand.
I have got the Collins Gem Food for Free, and the Collins Gem Mushrooms, I keep them in my Responce Pack a handy feild guide as they are small, and the two fit in one end pocket.
True, but working and not eating is no fun in practice. If I can see wild food I'll eat it even when I'm not hungry.
Elen,
I should first of say that I'm no expert on this topic. I am also diabetic (insulin dependent). With respect to your request for more detail on Hunter/Gatherer diets, I'd be way off my comfort zone primarily because its not an area I can claim any more knowledge that anyone else I'm afraid. The OP was posing a question relating to a situation in which one is faced with an emergency situation and the choice was whether the body would be better put into full starvation mode or if it is best to acquire whatever one could. Arguments have been put for both cases. In my interpretation of hunter gatherer, the situation is subtly different because, although there would have been hardship, there would also be a continuity of presence and experience. Unlike our OP, who is not in his familiar environment, a hunter gatherer , in addition to a lifetime's experience, would maybe have food preserved from a previous season - hazel nuts, maybe, that have been roasted to preserve them. The last point is that the key missing food group for the OP would be carbohydrate. If you look through "Food for Free" and almost all the other books like it, there is a notable absence of many things which contain carbs. There are a number of potential sources out there, but in an emergency situation one would, realistically, probably be limited to cat tail or burdock the other potential sources being more labour intensive as well as generally seasonal. Sorry I can't be of more help Elen.
I should first of say that I'm no expert on this topic. I am also diabetic (insulin dependent). With respect to your request for more detail on Hunter/Gatherer diets, I'd be way off my comfort zone primarily because its not an area I can claim any more knowledge that anyone else I'm afraid. The OP was posing a question relating to a situation in which one is faced with an emergency situation and the choice was whether the body would be better put into full starvation mode or if it is best to acquire whatever one could. Arguments have been put for both cases. In my interpretation of hunter gatherer, the situation is subtly different because, although there would have been hardship, there would also be a continuity of presence and experience. Unlike our OP, who is not in his familiar environment, a hunter gatherer , in addition to a lifetime's experience, would maybe have food preserved from a previous season - hazel nuts, maybe, that have been roasted to preserve them. The last point is that the key missing food group for the OP would be carbohydrate. If you look through "Food for Free" and almost all the other books like it, there is a notable absence of many things which contain carbs. There are a number of potential sources out there, but in an emergency situation one would, realistically, probably be limited to cat tail or burdock the other potential sources being more labour intensive as well as generally seasonal. Sorry I can't be of more help Elen.
A nice post Mr Firelite. It is true, carbs DO seem to be the problem!
I wonder if the 'Hive Mind ' of BcUK can come up with others beyond Burdock and Cat Tail? ( I can't, right this min, off the top of my head! )
Best.
C.
I wonder if the 'Hive Mind ' of BcUK can come up with others beyond Burdock and Cat Tail? ( I can't, right this min, off the top of my head! )
Best.
C.
Sorry I have not answered sooner I have been out battling -30C weather, Ironically trying to get food.
The proof that is actually out there can be found in different research and medical books available, that I must admit do take some time to find. For my own book I also sourced out several doctors and researchers to confirm what I was writing is true. I do believe that Stuart Goring in his article on food published in Primitive Skill lists all the resource books, he and Mors used, that will give you many answers if you can find that article it will save me listing all the various papers and books I used.
According to all the research I have found switching from digesting your own bodies reserves to going back and digesting small amounts of food, then going back to fasting, confuses and complicates the fasting process. Ultimately this reduces the amount of time you can most likely survive without food for, say around 40 days. Which seems to be the average a human can push themselves for depending on calorific use through the individuals metabolic process and energy burn up.
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