fasting vs foraging

[hunter1182]

If you was in a wilderness survival situation and you was unaware of the amount of time you was going to be there for, would it be better to fast of forage? This is assuming that you didn't have the knowledge or the food to forage within the area you that were surviving to meet your daily amount to remain alive. The questions i have on the matter that are in my head is that, would your body go into its own survival fasting system and keep you alive for longer, or would it be better to eat the odd berry's, fungus and plants that you could find to try and give you that extra energy to prolong your life? Is anyone on here a "mad scientist" and understands how the body handles starvation?

Cheers for any help,
Hunter

 

[sandbender]

I suppose it would depend on the season and location. But if you did recognise things that you could eat, you should eat them. Prolonged starvation inhibits the bodies ability to process food, even eating a small amount each day can keep your systems ticking over.

 

[Bowlander]

Have a listen to the Jack Mountain bushcraft podcast. Tim Smith makes some fair comments - short term he reckons fasting is better, makes sense to me.

 

[Limaed]

Forage. If you eat nothing your body struggles to mobilize your fat reserves into energy leading to what is called ketoacidosis. If you can provide yourself with 500 Kcal of carbohydrate from the wild you will be able to work normally (albeit at a much slower rate) and survive longer then if you had nothing. 'Fat burns in a carbohydrate flame' so the saying goes.

 

[Prawnster]

Forage. If you eat nothing your body struggles to mobilize your fat reserves into energy leading to what is called ketoacidosis. If you can provide yourself with 500 Kcal of carbohydrate from the wild you will be able to work normally (albeit at a much slower rate) and survive longer then if you had nothing. 'Fat burns in a carbohydrate flame' so the saying goes.

Very interesting that, thanks for posting. Aren't carbs very difficult to source in the wild though? What sort of things would/could provide those 500kcals?


Sent from my phone.

 

[hunter1182]

Have a listen to the Jack Mountain bushcraft podcast. Tim Smith makes some fair comments - short term he reckons fasting is better, makes sense to me.

This is exactly what prompted my question, very interesting listen. I'm still not convinced either way. The human body is a very complex system.

Hunter

 

[sandbender]

"...If you can provide yourself with 500 Kcal of carbohydrate from the wild you will be able to work normally (albeit at a much slower rate) and survive longer then if you had nothing..."

That 500 kcal makes all the difference, there was a study by the Norwegian army into how their soldiers would cope when forced to rely on what they might expect to forage and three litres of water per day, one control group were made to fast, other groups were provided with foods of one type or another. The group provided with only 500 kcal managed surprisingly well when compared to the starvation group. By the end of the tenth day the 500 kcal group has endured weight loss but were still able and active and their blood sugar levels were normal. Whereas the starvation group had dangerously low blood suger levels, erratic heartbeats and a deterioration in nerve and muscle function. The 500 kcal group were still active after three weeks, albeit at a much reduced rate, however their blood sugar still measured normal.

 

[sandbender]

"...Very interesting that, thanks for posting. Aren't carbs very difficult to source in the wild though? What sort of things would/could provide those 500kcals?..."

Cattail, dandelion and in my experience, Rosebay Willow Herb.

 

[Limaed]

I did the Journeyman course with Woodlore a few years ago and a large part of the course is focused on resourcing food. We mostly foraged Cattail but I guess Burdock would be good too. We also got some carbs from fruits and other greens.It's really hard work to produce calories this way, much harder then most would imagine I guess.

It was interesting detoxing, I hardly drink, don't smoke and avoid caffeine however have a very sweet tooth so had lots of headaches at the start.

Off topic slightly I know but I can't bear to waste food now and idiotic programs like 'Man vs Food' drive me insane!

 

[hunter1182]

That 500 kcal makes all the difference, there was a study by the Norwegian army into how their soldiers would cope when forced to rely on what they might expect to forage and three litres of water per day, one control group were made to fast, other groups were provided with foods of one type or another. The group provided with only 500 kcal managed surprisingly well when compared to the starvation group. By the end of the tenth day the 500 kcal group has endured weight loss but were still able and active and their blood sugar levels were normal. Whereas the starvation group had dangerously low blood suger levels, erratic heartbeats and a deterioration in nerve and muscle function. The 500 kcal group were still active after three weeks, albeit at a much reduced rate, however their blood sugar still measured normal.

This is extremely interesting, do you have a link to this research or know the name of it?

cheers.

 

[Corso]

That 500 kcal makes all the difference, there was a study by the Norwegian army into how their soldiers would cope when forced to rely on what they might expect to forage and three litres of water per day, one control group were made to fast, other groups were provided with foods of one type or another. The group provided with only 500 kcal managed surprisingly well when compared to the starvation group. By the end of the tenth day the 500 kcal group has endured weight loss but were still able and active and their blood sugar levels were normal. Whereas the starvation group had dangerously low blood suger levels, erratic heartbeats and a deterioration in nerve and muscle function. The 500 kcal group were still active after three weeks, albeit at a much reduced rate, however their blood sugar still measured normal.

blood sugar is always the issue.

as for the research you desribed do you have more info would be interested in knowing what the environment they used

 

[sandbender]

I did the Journeyman course with Woodlore a few years ago and a large part of the course is focused on resourcing food. We mostly foraged Cattail but I guess Burdock would be good too. We also got some carbs from fruits and other greens.It's really hard work to produce calories this way, much harder then most would imagine I guess.

It was interesting detoxing, I hardly drink, don't smoke and avoid caffeine however have a very sweet tooth so had lots of headaches at the start.

Off topic slightly I know but I can't bear to waste food now and idiotic programs like 'Man vs Food' drive me insane!

I did the Journeyman quite a while ago, back in the days when Professor Gordon Hillman would spend the week with you. It is a very controlled situation and they 'engineer' your experience so that you really appreciate even small amounts of carbohydrate. Interestingly one of the groups on my course failed to source any cattails and it was obvious that they really were suffering for having not done so. A lack of caffeine was the killer for me, quite bad headaches.

Since that course I have done something similar twice, once for ten days, it is very hard work but it does make you appreciate the food on your plate and the food growing in your garden all the more.

 

[sandbender]

"...This is extremely interesting, do you have a link to this research or know the name of it?.."

"...as for the research you desribed do you have more info would be interested in knowing what the environment they used..."

I'll see what I can do, I have some paperwork somewhere, I'll look it out.

 

[Bluebs4]

Keto type diet will use the body's fat as intended but also muscle because lack of nutrient , I lost three stone on a keto diet and after the dreaded first three days I was bouncing . 500kcals will make a massive difference but so easy to burn up , as stated I'd fast for the short term . Give it a go get rid of all the crap and detox .

 

[Bluefrog]

as stated I'd fast for the short term .

But how would you know how long it would be until someone found you? you could be there for any length of time. I suppose you could apply the fasting rule to all survival situations as the majority of them are over within a couple of days.

Ste

 

[santaman2000]

Very interesting that, thanks for posting. Aren't carbs very difficult to source in the wild though? What sort of things would/could provide those 500kcals?

Sent from my phone.

Not as difficult as most believe. Carbs such as pasta, rice, bread, and other processed carbs (simple carbs) would only be available in whatever rations you had brought with you. However most plants especially nuts and berries provide some form of "complex carbs" which ate better for you anyway. This is especially true of grains, nuts, and berries; but obviosly nuts and berries would be more prevelent than grains in the wild.

 

[ebt.]

I was just reading something along these lines recently, essentially comparing starvation (hunger striking prisoners) with people operating in massive calorie deficit (polar explorers). The crux of it was the guys starving themselves went downhill far faster (and recovered far slower), which was attributed to lack of nutrient throughput. I seem to recall reading it was thought to relate to lack of trace elements/vitamins etc, but of course I cant find the damn reference for that particular bit now.

Source: Survival of the fittest, Mike Stroud 1999.

 

[sandbender]

"...a study by the Norwegian army..."

Never listen to anything I say! It was a study by the Swedish army, not the Norwegian one.

Documentation, in Swedish, can be downloaded from BushcraftUK!

The Handbok Överlevnad.

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads/pdf/h_overlevnad.pdf

The relevant sections begin on page 41, with the A/B comparison of starvation vs 500 kcal a day beginning on page 51.

Cut and paste the text into Google translate to translate the text into English.

Thanks to Paul at Frontier Bushcraft for reminding me where the original article had come from.

 

[hunter1182]

Never listen to anything I say! It was a study by the Swedish army, not the Norwegian one.

Documentation, in Swedish, can be downloaded from BushcraftUK!

The Handbok Överlevnad.

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads/pdf/h_overlevnad.pdf

The relevant sections begin on page 41, with the A/B comparison of starvation vs 500 kcal a day beginning on page 51.

Cut and paste the text into Google translate to translate the text into English.

Thanks to Paul at Frontier Bushcraft for reminding me where the original article had come from.

Thank you so much, very helpful

 

[forestwalker]

Never listen to anything I say! It was a study by the Swedish army, not the Norwegian one.

Documentation, in Swedish, can be downloaded from BushcraftUK!

The Handbok Överlevnad.

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads/pdf/h_overlevnad.pdf

The relevant sections begin on page 41, with the A/B comparison of starvation vs 500 kcal a day beginning on page 51.

Cut and paste the text into Google translate to translate the text into English.

Thanks to Paul at Frontier Bushcraft for reminding me where the original article had come from.

Of course, I must now point out that the data behind those statements are at least 30 years old by now, that the studies done by Källman, that these conclusions were mostly based on, were flawed (i.e. we don't really know what the correct conclusion should be, due mainly to crappy analysis methods and often quite small groups). Lars Ståhle and Elisabet Granström has done some resent studies that appear to validate the hypothesis that starvation in itself is not as bad as we have thought it was. Vitamin (and mineral?) deficiency may turn out to be a more important issue (e.g. B1 is essential for the krebs cycle) for long and medium term, and sleep deprivation for the shorter term.

I (and others) have been out for 10 days with quite low caloric intakes, and while one has been "low and slow", all members of the group have been functional, and after a proper meal we were pretty much back to normal (note: lost muscle mass that negatively affected athletic performance for some time was reported by at least one participant). My own suspicion is that if the body is in ketosis mode one will function fairly well, but that that takes a while to get there and that occational bursts of carbohydrades shuts down the ketosis.

It is a topic of debate, where no one can in honesty say that they have the final answer. More studies, well designed studies, are needed before we have the final answer. One study that I would like to see is what happens to people on ketosis diets (LCHF, Atkins, etc) if subjected to starvation. I suspect that blood glucose will be much more stable for those subjects.