atlatl and archery

[bent-stick]

I've just made a couple of copper points. Pics later. Rain and wind has stopped play for a minute. The socketed point is pretty tough but it relies on having a shaft about the diameter of the pipe IO'm using. The tanged and barbed points look a bit more flimsy. I wouldn't give them much of a chance if they hit something solid. I'm going to try corrugating one to make it more rigid.

Jerv, you need to use the nodes and binding to stop the split. I've seen amazonian arrows that have a black palm insert that slots in and stops at the nearest node. You can then carry lots of different points and just push the one appropriate to the prey into the arrow. The point is sacrificial but the good news it you probably get the arrow and fletchings back.

Not a good idea for what we are doing...getting the points back from inside a hay bale is going to be a bit of a mission.

 

[spamel]

I read the Jean M Auel range of Earths Children books, and there is a fair bit about atlatls in them. They use detachable heads for hunting so as to preserve the main part fo the arrow. They also use leather thong loops to put their fingers through, and demonstrate a reasonable amount of accuracy over quite a large distance. I know the books are purely fiction, but they are based on historical facts and the writer has gained experience in a lot of the bushcraft skills in the book as she learnt to do them to be able to write about them. If you haven't read them before, get down the library and get them out, but a word of warning: There's a few rude bits in there aswell!!

 

[bent-stick]

Here we go. These are a bit rough and ready but they seem to work. The images are big so only the finished item is shown. If you want to see how I got there, click the links

Socketed point

bashed flat and hacksawed into shape
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/3367/onshaft.jpg

Groove filed in to take sinew. This must go all the way into the wood
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/5351/fileoutgroove.jpg

And sinewed on

Barbed and tanged point


Bashed and dremelled out. (using my stone age dremel )
http://img182.imageshack.us/my.php?image=barbedonpipe.jpg

Wood preparation
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/552/barbedsplishaft.jpg

Tang rounded off a bit
http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/... dried I'll feather in the shaft a bit finer.

 

[bent-stick]

And here's my sooper-dooper chucker made of a bit of futon base...

 

[jerv]

Lot's of questions. Like the atlatl a lot by the way.
First: how difficult was the the copper to work was it enealled (sp?) or tempered?
Second: How hard is the copper? will it require constant maintainance? would it go through bone how sharp does it get?
Third: Is making copper points more cost effective than buying blacksmith made points?
Forth: which are going to go for copper, bone or antler?
Fifth: Are you working from a historical model?

last one how does sinew deal with our wonderful climate? do you have to waterproof it?

 

[bent-stick]

The copper was easy enough to work I didn't bother annealing it. Just got a bigger hammer. []

No There's no historic precedent for these. They are just what can be turned out of pipe in little time. If I could have found my cold chisel it would have been quicker still.

I put a bit of hide glue on the sinew on my arrows. I use it to whip on the leading edge of the feathers and reinforcing the nocks. It's not 100% water proof but it's ok as long as they are not left to soak.

I haven't attempted to put a fine edge on them. In real hunting flint tops would be sharper and more durable.

I'll have a go with horn and bone before february but I might go for my steel bodkins in the end. They are much more likely to stick in the target.

 

[WhichDoctor]

I read the Jean M Auel range of Earths Children books, and there is a fair bit about atlatls in them. They use detachable heads for hunting so as to preserve the main part fo the arrow. They also use leather thong loops to put their fingers through, and demonstrate a reasonable amount of accuracy over quite a large distance. I know the books are purely fiction, but they are based on historical facts and the writer has gained experience in a lot of the bushcraft skills in the book as she learnt to do them to be able to write about them. If you haven't read them before, get down the library and get them out, but a word of warning: There's a few rude bits in there aswell!!

Yes they are good books and as you say very well researched, but I would say "a few rude bits" is some what of an understatement in the later books at least .

In one of those books I seem to remember a bone spearhead made by cutting both ends off a long-bone, one a flat cut the other cut at an angle so it makes a hypodermic syringe type point. Then cut a slit down its length soak it in water to soften it then fours it onto the end of the spear, the slit allowing it to expand to fit, then lashing it in place with roar-hide or sinew. I thought I would have a go at that on at least one dart but I also thought the same principle could apply to your copper heads bent-stick. You could cut a slit down the length of the pipe and ether shrink it down or stretch it to fit different sized darts.

 

[jerv]

how's everyone doin with it? We haven't really had the weather for it sadly. I got out for some practice today and got to try the nasty heavy darts I had made. Nice and flat trajectory, looked the part, but felt heavy and had a fairly short max range (35-40 yds) with my short atlatl. The 5' 11/32 still remains my favourite.
We got some nice improvements on accuracy and amazingly had some complete "pass throughs" (we use straw bales as targets) with the darts continuing to travel for 1 or 2 yards !!
Later we had a shoot through the woods and lost one dart which had passed straight through a branch and was impossible to dislodge. Man we tried!!

 

[WhichDoctor]

I finely got out and tried mine out for real last Friday! Alas I totally mucked up fletching my hazel dart so will have to wait for some more feathers now, so I only had my three cheap and cheerful duck-tape and bamboo darts. I found the knuckle grip atlatl worked much better with the side sweep method and the other one was better with the over hand way. I got an average range of 50m with both atlatls, I think the flights must have been a bit big because even when I throw the darts at 45 degrees they went in a normal ark until they reached 50m or so and then just seemed to stall and fall strait downwards. I tried out a bit of target practice too with the aid of a wire fence and a piece of plastic, although all the darts were slightly different lengths and waits (they were only the canes that have spent the last two years in the greenhouses) I got a cupel of good hits from 10 meters and I found the side swipe a lot better for accuracy. I've just got a bundle of new 6ft canes from the hardware store and now have seven almost identical ones so I should be able to do a bit better next time.

Now I've got to work out what to do for a quiver, carrying darts around my hand gets a bit tiyering .

 

[jerv]

good stuff"! i've not had much luck with the side swipe. I tend to go for a sword swipe over the top of the head trying to keep the elbow in. the line seems to be easy but the elevation is really tricky. Most of my darts are random shapes and sizes i'm trying to make them more uniform but I like experimenting at the smae time. Some sort of quiver would be good (particularly with all this mud at the moment) I suspect however that the ancestors just carried them in their off hand Maybe tucking forshafts in their belt. lot's of modern hunter gatherers seem to just carry their much arrows. I tried this once and it just bugged the hell out of me. Got to be born to it maybe!

 

[rich59]

I downloaded a vid of a guy spearing a model deer in woodland and watched it over a number of times. The key thing about this "accuracy" throw was that it was pretty effortless and he held a stable body posture and just flicked his arm. So that is the model I am working to.

I started out with simple garden bamboo canes and haven't left them. When I got the throw true then it sailed straight for 15-20 metres, so I am not sure I will get round to the fletching. - like a modern competition javelin.

I thought I had the accuracy coming along from some practice in my shed. When I took it outdoors I learned a thing or two, but lost my main dart to the roof of my neighbour's shed, so I crept back in the shed.

But, now I have I think a truer throw and am hoping to test it outside again sometime soon.

Contemplating rubbing down some stone points, but may well resort to the copper pipe suggested.

Should the atlatl pushing end be concave or convex? I thought about how it might behave through an arc of 90 - 180 degrees and concluded that many shapes would lose contact. I currently work with a hollow in the atlatl head tucked under a little shelf that will continue contact I hope all the way to 180 degrees if the dart keeps in contact that long.

I have posed myself a question about dart velocity. Does the dart travel on release at the same speed as the head of the atlatl or faster? Interestingly the internet chats I have read talk all round the question about the springyness of the dart possibly imparting extra velocity but I can't find yet a site that tackles this direct question with an actual measurement.

 

[jerv]

Lot's of BIG images!!! The people who still (more or less) use spear throwers aboriginal australians and some new guineans don't use fletchings.
It's one of those things that get me. All these guys sitting around arguing about how these things work when there are people out there actually using them as part of a continuous tradition.
stone may shatter but would look great have you considered bone?. Do you have a link to the atlatl video?? I wonder if he's getting enough power from the throw to do any damage to a real deer. I use pegs and convex ends. I have a feeling that "female" atlatls are considered an inferior design...but if it works it works.

 

[rich59]

http://www.arthurhaines.com/primitive_skills/atlatl_demonstration.wmv

OK there is some movement of the body but not much.

 

[jerv]

LOVE IT great stuff!

 

[WhichDoctor]

OK there is some movement of the body but not much.

That is very interesting, he uses a much more compact throw than other throwing tutorials I've seen on the net. He didn't seem to have any lateral movement in his body, just strait forward. I will have to have a go at that. I doubt it has the power of a more expansive throw, but there's no point being able to throw a long way if you cant hit anything .

 

[jerv]

I like that guy's style. One of the problems that I have noticed with some of the tutorials is that they seem to forget that this tool was designed with only one purpose in mind..killing animals. If you move alot the animal will be gone. I have read that deer watch the darts coming and then side step them..darts are slow! Aggressive animals like boars seem not to try to avoid them and choose fight over flight (and die).
Keeping movements minimal is really difficult I was amazed how much I move when I saw a video of myself throwing.
Cro magnons seem to have eaten mostly horses, red deer and reindeer did they wait patiently watching until the chosen animal was relaxedly eating, head down, unaware before using a minimal cast to send a dart towards them?
Or did they corall the animals, attack them in bottle necks and simply hurl darts into a seething mass of panicked animals.
People seem to synchronize after a certain amount of time in close company. Could cro magnons have thrown darts in a volley at individual animals giving them no where to run?
All i've ever seen of aboriginal woomera hunting is from"walkabout" so i'm not really to sure how they do it.

 

[rich59]

I have been trying to hit a target at 15 and 20 metres for some weeks. I now have one dart that works much better than any other I have played with so far. It is bamboo, about 6-7 feet long and tapers quite a lot. For fletching I have a very informal setup - just a turn of duct tape that about 3 inches flaps about in the breeze to create a bit of drag. I will need to replace with something natural. No point as yet.

I point at the target with a smaller dart in my other hand, get my main dart loaded and parallel and let fly. For elevation I use my thumb at the end of the outstretched arm to mark what elevation I did last time and then correct from their.

Accuracy -well at both distances I was 6 - 9 inches off dead centre with my last throw.

How are other folks doing?


Oh, and I have a medical condition now that I think could be called Atlatlers rib. A constant slight strain at my lower ribs on my non dominant side.

 

[bent-stick]

I can't hit the side of a barn

I don't have anywhere I can practice within easy reach.

Don't think I'll be in with a shout for any of jerv's rather fine prizes on the 25th Feb.

The entry form is over here...We have to control the numbers so we'd like entries by the 20 Feb please. First come first served. Rich - you're in.

http://www.bushcraftuk.com/community/showthread.php?p=240513#post240513

 

[jerv]

The targets (both Isac and the ones I have made) are HUUUGGGE, life size tarpan and reindeer. so at 15 metres you should be scoring. I get good consitency but am trying to get the darts "on target". I have however noticed that I can feel the shot more just like instinctive archery archery. It may sound flakey but feeling the shot and finding the groove are important in these things.
New dart hazel 7' or so with deer thigh broad (ish) head. Not fletched at present but will have three full length fletches .

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[rich59]

I found somewhere to try out flight throws (distance) today. I took a clutch of small to medium darts and 3 varying atlatls. I learnt a lot and did get 69 metres (with a following wind and slightly down hill). My most hopeful dart however was a disaster. I am throwing without fletching mostly and this little chappie needed it, or to be heavier at the nose.

I hear of throws over 100 metres. I will have to improve my technology to get up to that standard.