atlatl and archery

[jerv]

There are a few details regarding insurance and a final date still to be worked out but it looks like this thing is on for the last weekend in february (TBC!) It's early days yet and a lot still has to be worked out. But an accuracy test based on ICAS and a short feild course with a flight test look like they will main events. A atlatl crafting competition and primitive weapon comparison are also being talked about (i'd personally love to see a sling expert).
Ity's supposed to be fun but anyone coming might want to get in practice.
While waiting for your decent wood to season a rough atlatl can be made in about 10-30 minutes from a suitable piece of wood a branch ,piece of scrap soft wood pretty much anything. You can make darts from 4'-5' 9mm pine dowels fletched like an arrow with a socket cut in the back and fitted with an 11/32 field point. You'll get a good and consistent set to practice with in a few hours.
word of advice if copying a historical example remember that they were made for the individual thrower. The inuit who made the original harpoon board I copied had smaller hands than mine which has made using it a little uncomfortable. Aztecs and meso americans were mostly smaller than us the ice age populations of europe were comparable if thats any help.
PM me if you are interested in coming or want any of my (limited) advice on making and throwing the things. Advice from interested parties would also be welcomed.

 

[bent-stick]

I have at least 4 expressions of interest from folks who don't frequent this board.

I'll chase up the insurance stuff during this week. I'll be seeing the SPTA secretary next weekend at the annual venison shoot and I'm hoping to have an answer then. There'll be a small entry fee to cover this and we hope to award some sort of prizes.

You need to know this if you are planning to make some equipment.

The rules we are planning to use divide the equipment into 2 classes. The primitive class is all natural materials that would be available in the stone age. Copper points are allowed. I'm going to makje some copper points from 1/2" pipe that was left over from plumbing in the new boiler to replace the iron points that I have on my darts at the moment. When I've worked out the best way to do it I'll post some pictures. You are allowed modern glues and artificial sinew. (Phew I don't have to spend days boiling up rawhide shavings) Any thoughts about whether linen thread is allowable?

Anything that doesn't fit that goes into that Open class.

Cane, hazel (although it might need hardening with some heat), ramin dowel are all fine for shafts but there is a 19mm (3/4" in old money) diameter limit which applies to the shaft and the point - which excludes mad broadheads but not the fletchings. One of the advantages with cane is that you can get away with either a fire hardened quill point or a hardwood foreshaft and you have a ready made socket. Cut the cane 1/2" above a node and whip to avoid splitting.

If you are lucky you will find a bit of hazel or blackthorn with a ready made spur. This will give you a spearchucker with very little extra work. The next grade up would involve a bit of carving and binding on a bone or horn spur. Then you can go start doing extremely intricate stuff with grips and rests. If you want to see some of the more intricate designs have a look here:

Thunderbird

Some other design thoughts: If you are using flint or other whipped on points make sure they are secure. Otherwise you'll loose them when pulling them out of the target. (voice of experience). If you have a massive point you will be able to carry more energy but the dart will try to fly backwards so you need a stiffer dart and bigger fletchings to hold the back of the dart in line.

If you use PVA glue to secure points mix it with some fine sand (it should be a good red sandy soil ideally). If you lay the glue on thick it will skin and take ages to dry properly. The aggregate will make it tougher and take less time to harden.

 

[jerv]

link doesn't appear to work. I like the idea of a blackthorn chucker i'll strart some foraging i think. Most examples of chuckers I have seen have had very high fletchings. However there was an article in the bullletin of primitive technology about throwing for distance by craig ratzat in which he talks about leaving fletchings off well balanced and spined darts. I have used 5" archery parabolics and they worked reasonably.
I'd say yes to linen thread, according to Jim Woods of Herret Falls museum ID (Indiana?) linen was used by pre Columbus Native Americans. Was it used by primitive Europeans??? Dunno honestly, but if it was growing wild why not?

 

[bent-stick]

I mended the link...

 

[bent-stick]

I've had a group on msm for a while now that is sort of moribund. Shall we use that to track progress of the event...some of my mates don't frequent this board. Dunno why not.

Archery craft and Spearchucking

So far we have the following:

Firm commitments from:

David Sinfield (me)
Jerv (BCUK)

Expressions of interest from
Mark H
Peter B
Bruno S
Wally R
Steve T
Snufkin (BCUK)
Seoras (BCUK)
Stovie (BCUK)

 

[chrisanson]

I've had a group on msm for a while now that is sort of moribund. Shall we use that to track progress of the event...some of my mates don't frequent this board. Dunno why not.

Archery craft and Spearchucking

So far we have the following:

Firm commitments from:

David Sinfield (me)
Jerv (BCUK)

Expressions of interest from
Mark H
Peter B
Bruno S
Wally R
Steve T
Snufkin (BCUK)
Seoras (BCUK)
Stovie (BCUK)

i am a member of msn.com/ArcheryCraftandSpearchucking i made the forged arrow heads. dosnt seem to be much going on there for a while.
chris

 

[rich59]

If the plan is an atlatl throwing event at the end of February then I am game depending on dates etc.

 

[bent-stick]

I'll add you as a possible

 

[Grooveski]

Wish I was close enough to come along but it's never going to happen.
Least I can do is chuck in a pic, isn't that a pretty sight?

 

[bent-stick]

If you can whip up some enthusiasm and a venue in the frozen north Grooveski we could probably make it happen...You might want to see how it goes in Feb. I'm sure there will be pics.

I'll start learning the language

Looks like there's material there for loads of darts anyway...

Latest news:

The venue is confirmed.
So is the date 25th February.
Sounds good, lake included.
Limit of 30 (ish)

We have a provisional schedule of events:

ICAS standard round
Big game round
Flight shoot

I'm doing a buildalong to turn out a chucker and dart...as soon as I can get back out in the workshop... So if anyone is hovering because they haven't got gear watch this space. It really isn't difficult to put something together.

Firm commitments from:

David Sinfield (me)
Jerv (BCUK)

Expressions of interest from
Mark H
Alan S
Peter B
Bruno S
Wally R
Steve T
Snufkin (BCUK)
Seoras (BCUK)
Stovie (BCUK)
Rich59(BCUK)

 

[jerv]

I picked up, no kidding picked up off the ground, a stick that would be fine for the thrower. If i can work out how to post things like pictures and stuff I'll do it as I am having a big throwing experiment tommorrow (weather permitting) anyone had a bash with a baton de commandment or a woomera?

 

[Green Arrow]

I would be interested, if easy to get to from Hampshire, might know a couple of field archers who might be interested too if you want a few more.

cheers

 

[jerv]

it'll be in buxted which is easy enough to get to just go down the A272.
it would be nice to see you there. theres still some places left.

 

[rich59]

Is it just a day event or is there over night as well?

 

[jerv]

we may able to arrange camping. It might not be on the farm but not too far. depends on the numbers I suppose. there may be more than just the competition.

 

[bent-stick]

I was asked about camping today too. Must say it would be good if I could come down on saturday and do some setting up. Any recommendations for something nearby would be good.

 

[jerv]

People may be alowed to camp on the farm there are taps, toilets and other such wonders. Fires may be allowed However there is more than one family there so noise would have to be kept low. I also know a woman who has an acre or so nearby the farm which she uses for events and tipi things. I know someone who has 3 acres of woodland about an hours drive away. A great place to camp but very far. I am new to this area myself and don't know too many people. If there are any BCUK members in this area TN22 and they know somewhere their help would be most welcome.

 

[Green Arrow]

Thanks Jerv will put the date in my diary, mentioned it to a few of the lads in my Field Archery club and they seemed quite keen too. Just got to try and make an atlatl now! How did your throwing experiment go?

 

[rich59]

I have been experimenting with what makes a good chucker (or atlatl) and dart set. I started out with just waving around some sticks. The most impressive whipping noise (and therefore perhaps the fastest flick) was got from a 4 foot long flexible bamboo cane. I am toying with making a small, dense dart (akin to a pub dart) with a groove in its forward end to flick out with my makeshift bamboo launcher connected by a very short bit of cordage. Is that akin to a French arrow? Not much accuracy but might go a long way I am thinking.

I have also being working on a chucking system that will produce accuracy at 15 - 20 metres. I tried a simple batton of commercial pine with a bit of cordage tied round one end to form a ridge and then trying to fling various sizes of darts/ arrows. I found that darts of 2-3 feet were very unstable. But when I went up to about 6 foot bamboo it seemed much more stable. But the chucking batton was a bit heavy and the cordage a bit unreliable so I then went out to get a dedicated chucker. After surveying a number of plants I finally found a maple in my garden with a nice straight 1 - 1.5 inch diameter stem and a nice thick side branch at the bottom end to make the launcher nodule to push the dart. 15 minutes shaping, peeling of bark resulted in a fairly pleasing flexible rod about 15 inches long and a hollowed out nodule on the side at the thicker end.

Then I took a 6 foot long fairly straight garden bamboo cane and started practicing chucking it in my shed. After quite a few knocks on the end wall (with 1/8 inch dents in the wood) I rigged up a folded curtain hung on a horizontal line that made a reasonable target and also took the impacts.

I then spent an hour trying out technique and also tried launching it a few times down my garden. In the garden it easily flew 15 metres down the garden on a farly low trajectory. In the shed I had perhaps 3 metres. For now I seem to have got together a 2 handed technique where the non throwing hand forms a rest to steady the main shaft. I even wondered about extending my "pointing" arm by holding a Y shaped stick in it. I may need to create a rest on my atlatl to take the dart shaft if I want to move to a one handed technique. I could fairly consistently hit a 3 inch wide spot on the curtain at 3 metres. I don't know if that will translate to 15 - 20 metres outdoors but it is a start.

I don't know anything about making a penetrating point or fletching so far.

I have spent more time looking at internet pictures and descriptions and even a downloaded video of technique.

Where is everyone else at on atlatl development?

 

[jerv]

I've posted some photos on bent sticks site
http://groups.msn.com/archerycraftandspearchucking/notbowsorarrows.msnw

camping will be available but the field is not suited to more than a few cars so we will need to plan it in advance.

The best darts we used were 4'-5' 11/332 (9mm) pine dowels fitted with 125 grain field points and fletched with turkey fletches. A 6' dowel to the same specs also worked well. These were used at 15 and 10 yards. We didn't test my 1/2" 6' darts because my spear heads haven't arrived! I expect that they will do well.
The bamboo we used snapped on it's first throw but looked like it had promise.
The feature we both decided was most important was an adequately heavy head, blunts or light points on heavy shafts just don't work. fletchings were not so important to get right though bigger was better (for accuracy)
the deer bone spur gave the best fit and for these short ranges I like a small chucker. I may move to a larger thrower as I become more profficient. The smaller chuckers still had plenty of power. One wooden blunt penetrated 2" into a pallet!
For distance I expect completely differnet lengths and weights will prove more effective. My distance dart was useless at short range.