I was just wondering how many others out there practice making and throwing atlatls. It seems to be a big thing in the US. Has anyone taken one to an archery club or field shoot? If there is more than one of us we could possibly get together to have an atlatl field shoot on the farm I work at For those who haven't tried it's pretty easy to get a working version made it's basically a 6' arrow thrown from a board. Try it it's fun
atlatl and archery
- Thread starter jerv
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jerv...it is BIG here in the US actually there is a hunting season open for Atlatl hunting. But yes I do practice and there is a worldwide organization for atlatl practitioners. just google it @ www.google.com
Happy atlatling
Happy atlatling
Our little primitive group got the atl-atl bug. We didn't do any spearchucking at the last meet because we couldn't secure the site. We are looking for a site for the next meet, hopefully before Christmas. I'll post details on the gatherings forum if it ever comes off.
We did a few experiments and we were getting roughly 3 time the distance than we did throwing the dart by hand.
I'm planning to include atl-atl in the archery course I'm preparing for next year. I don't want to promote it here, it's not the proper place, but if you PM me I'll let you have the details I know so far.
We did a few experiments and we were getting roughly 3 time the distance than we did throwing the dart by hand.
I'm planning to include atl-atl in the archery course I'm preparing for next year. I don't want to promote it here, it's not the proper place, but if you PM me I'll let you have the details I know so far.
I have started experimenting with the Atlatl after doing the master class at the Wilderness Gathering. I work as an outdoors instructor for the Sea Cadets and have been making sets up for the cadets to use whenever I run a camp. The sets are basic in that the darts do not have flint points and for speed of construction I use gaffa tape instead of feathers. Not very authentic I know but I try to cover as many bushcraft skills on these camps as possible.
The kids love the event as it is something they have never come across before. I show them the overhand throwing method first and then progress to the side swipe technique later. I use a circle of rope with an orange survival bag as a target. I vary the distance depending on student size/strength and skill level. Any other ideas for targets would be appreciated guys.
Keep me informed of what you are planning as this will be a good addition to the Bushmoot.
George
The kids love the event as it is something they have never come across before. I show them the overhand throwing method first and then progress to the side swipe technique later. I use a circle of rope with an orange survival bag as a target. I vary the distance depending on student size/strength and skill level. Any other ideas for targets would be appreciated guys.
Keep me informed of what you are planning as this will be a good addition to the Bushmoot.
George
how does the side swipe work??? I do a sort of tennis serve throw and get about 50 to 60 yards. My new darts are really frightening though, I just flicked my wrist and sent the beast a clear 35-40 yards. Gave the neighbour a fright!
I can't really imagine hunting with one would be pretty exciting though. I saw an old film of a traditional elephant hunt in africa and these guys were getting the elephant in the eye every shot.
spear hunting won't be happening in the UK though, people nearly burst into flames when you mention hunting with a bow.
I can't really imagine hunting with one would be pretty exciting though. I saw an old film of a traditional elephant hunt in africa and these guys were getting the elephant in the eye every shot.
spear hunting won't be happening in the UK though, people nearly burst into flames when you mention hunting with a bow.
I like atlatls although I haven't thrown in a while. I never really went for long range throws, just tried to get accurate at theoretical hunting ranges 15-20m. I could get on target pretty well but adjusting elevation was a problem, I'd either overthrow or underthrow. I'll have to make some more darts and get out there.
Jerv
From what I gather the overhand method was used when hunting big game such as mammoth. Many darts would be thrown at once.
Sideswipe (thats what I call it) is a much more definite targetting throw. Combined with good stalking techniques it is still used to hunt game in parts of the world. When using this technique the dart flies much closer to the ground and travels I feel much faster than the overhand method. The dart can also have weights attached to them which is supposed to make them travel faster.
I always set up the event as a type of Archery range, cordened off and only one thrower firing at a time. You can comfortably control 3 throwers on the range with one stepping forward to fire, then steeping back and the next thrower stepping forward and so forth. The speed that some throwers can release the darts is quite astounding.
For a much clearer history use this link to part of the download section. There are a few docs on the subject. Atlatl Downloads There are 3 or 4 docs on the subject.
From what I gather the overhand method was used when hunting big game such as mammoth. Many darts would be thrown at once.
Sideswipe (thats what I call it) is a much more definite targetting throw. Combined with good stalking techniques it is still used to hunt game in parts of the world. When using this technique the dart flies much closer to the ground and travels I feel much faster than the overhand method. The dart can also have weights attached to them which is supposed to make them travel faster.
I always set up the event as a type of Archery range, cordened off and only one thrower firing at a time. You can comfortably control 3 throwers on the range with one stepping forward to fire, then steeping back and the next thrower stepping forward and so forth. The speed that some throwers can release the darts is quite astounding.
For a much clearer history use this link to part of the download section. There are a few docs on the subject. Atlatl Downloads There are 3 or 4 docs on the subject.
jerv said:
Will be getting the scouts to make darts and atlatls on their camp in a few weeks, there's plenty hazel of the right length and diameter for the darts, and they can learn knife and axe techniques while making the atlatl.
I'm also going to demonstrate how to make a working bow and arrow from scratch in 2-3 hours...
Stuart made a nice one that Ive had a go with, I think its a great piece of equipment and it will get you fit retrieving the darts!!
Patrick has some fine examples or weighted ones. There's also a few articles on the site here...
Ahh, sorry George, just seen that you've put the link in already
Patrick has some fine examples or weighted ones. There's also a few articles on the site here...
Ahh, sorry George, just seen that you've put the link in already
I've had a word with the secretary of the Society for the Promotion of Traditional Archery and it may be - if there was interest and a suitable venue an alt-atl shoot (if that is the righ word) - could be arranged. I've no clue yet to the format but perhaps a target shoot for accuracy over a range of distances and a flght shoot to see who could get the furthest.
I don't think we will pull it together before next spring so you'd have time to research and build something.to chuck
So far there is a bit of interest in the South-East. Any suggestions for venues would be welcome. We'd need an open area that could be secured against people wandering in and getting nailed. The SPTA would supply insurance and some organisation and get some of its members to come along. .
We know there is a european group of spearchuckers and we'd extend an invite to them too.
Any interest?
I don't think we will pull it together before next spring so you'd have time to research and build something.to chuck
So far there is a bit of interest in the South-East. Any suggestions for venues would be welcome. We'd need an open area that could be secured against people wandering in and getting nailed. The SPTA would supply insurance and some organisation and get some of its members to come along. .
We know there is a european group of spearchuckers and we'd extend an invite to them too.
Any interest?
You might want to contact the World Atlatl Association. They have a set of competition rules for what they call "the international standard accuracy contest". I believe each competitor has 10 throws, 5 at 15m and 5 at 20m.bent-stick said:
Depending on when and where, I might be interested. As long as the venue has a large barn with very broad sides I should be OK
.my boss said we could use the farm for an atlatl field shoot. there is also a possibility of using adjoining woodland etc The farm is located in sussex. There won't be any public about winter or spring. As long as no one can throw over 250 metres we should be okay for a flight shoot. I thought a mammoth target would be quite fun. I'd really be more intersted in doing a field shoot rather than a target shoot but am really just keen to do it.
Is shoot the right word??
Is shoot the right word??
I have just read through some of those atlatl articles. Wow! That math is amazing, and if true should make archery enthusiasts sit up and get out pencils and paper to calculate the best arrow designs to go with their bow. But how many of us know about cosh functions?
But the idea that the projectile takes up and then releases tension energy back to kinetic energy during the act of throwing is a fab concept. I guess you could apply the same concept to the throwing stick (atlatl) as well - bending and straightening during the throw.
I think the frog has been proven to use this concept in its jumps - there are springy tissues in the muscles that take up energy at the start of the push off and then release it again at the end of the push off.
So if I wanted to apply that bending/ straightening action in the shaft of an arrow how would I go about designing my arrow? I would need a heavy point to the arrow, and a flexible arrow shaft. I wonder if in fact the shaft should then be slightly bent so as to be sure to bend more during the firing.
But the idea that the projectile takes up and then releases tension energy back to kinetic energy during the act of throwing is a fab concept. I guess you could apply the same concept to the throwing stick (atlatl) as well - bending and straightening during the throw.
I think the frog has been proven to use this concept in its jumps - there are springy tissues in the muscles that take up energy at the start of the push off and then release it again at the end of the push off.
So if I wanted to apply that bending/ straightening action in the shaft of an arrow how would I go about designing my arrow? I would need a heavy point to the arrow, and a flexible arrow shaft. I wonder if in fact the shaft should then be slightly bent so as to be sure to bend more during the firing.
Rich, I'm a bit of a duffer when it come to mathematics but I can offer a "lay-mans" interpretation.
There will be an optimum weight of the whole projectile, the lighter it is, the further it is likely to fly, but it will be more susceptible to side winds etc. At the other end of the scale, a heavier arrow will need more energy to fly a similar distance though it will hold a steadier course, and is likely to "strike" harder.
There are a whole lot of trade-offs in the final item;-
Spine (the springiness) of the shaft, too thick and it will not bend - leading to a dead feeling, too thin and it will "porpoise" leading to excess drag as it settles into straight flight. I don't think a pre-bent shaft will do you any favours as it will probably "corkscrew" in flight and throw accuracy out of the window.
Weight of the arrow head (which makes the arrow bend as it resists acceleration due to it own inertia), too light will not get the best out of the shaft and too heavy is in danger of snapping the shaft on launch or causing a permanent bend which will destroy accuracy.
Flights or fletches (which will stabilise the arrow by increasing drag on the rear end, to name a few, again too small will not hold a steady trajectory, and too big will cause excess drag.
I've seen some atlatl launchers with weights bound to the middle section which causes bending of the launcher, also because the throwing action is in an arc, the arrow shaft is bent during launch.
I think theres a whole lot of fun to be had in experimentation with lengths of arrow and launcher, weights, spine etc to get the best set-up for the individual as no two sets are likely to be the same. I've adapted this from a few years of longbow archery but the theories are very similar.
This is going to be a great winter project.
ATB
Ogri the trog
There will be an optimum weight of the whole projectile, the lighter it is, the further it is likely to fly, but it will be more susceptible to side winds etc. At the other end of the scale, a heavier arrow will need more energy to fly a similar distance though it will hold a steadier course, and is likely to "strike" harder.
There are a whole lot of trade-offs in the final item;-
Spine (the springiness) of the shaft, too thick and it will not bend - leading to a dead feeling, too thin and it will "porpoise" leading to excess drag as it settles into straight flight. I don't think a pre-bent shaft will do you any favours as it will probably "corkscrew" in flight and throw accuracy out of the window.
Weight of the arrow head (which makes the arrow bend as it resists acceleration due to it own inertia), too light will not get the best out of the shaft and too heavy is in danger of snapping the shaft on launch or causing a permanent bend which will destroy accuracy.
Flights or fletches (which will stabilise the arrow by increasing drag on the rear end, to name a few, again too small will not hold a steady trajectory, and too big will cause excess drag.
I've seen some atlatl launchers with weights bound to the middle section which causes bending of the launcher, also because the throwing action is in an arc, the arrow shaft is bent during launch.
I think theres a whole lot of fun to be had in experimentation with lengths of arrow and launcher, weights, spine etc to get the best set-up for the individual as no two sets are likely to be the same. I've adapted this from a few years of longbow archery but the theories are very similar.
This is going to be a great winter project.
ATB
Ogri the trog
jerv said:
It looks like we can do it under the SPTA insurance. I need to do a proposal and risk assessment.
We are probably looking at next spring (march perhaps) in Surrey/Sussex. If there is enough interest and a venue somewhere else in the country I wouldn't mind trying to organise another one later in the year.
Format is probably going to be along the lines of the world atl atl stuff Snufkin suggested but perhaps not 30 darts each as I suspect like me you will have a limited number of darts and it is a LOT of walking back and forth. I'm quite keen for research purposes to do a flight shoot too so we can compare designs/materials/techniques etc.
I'm sure we can come up with some imaginative primitive targets.
Small entry fee for prizes and stuff and a contribution towards the insurance. Juniors welcome, encouraged even. We'll open it out to SPTA and the European group.
I think 250m will be pushing it, even with my exocet atl-atl...
I'll have a word with some knappers to see if I can get some decent flakes for dart points to bring along.
There may well be some primitive bows and arrows around for comparison.
I'd be interested....just have to make one of those atlatl things in order to compete...Oh!...and a dart....and of course I'll bring along a bent stick as well
Let's get a date sorted and then we can sort out some kind of format.I'm thinking one of the first weekends in march. A sunday would be best. The farm is accesible by car and train.
The nice thing about this is that being new we can more or less make it up ourselves. The american thing would be fairly popular i think with some kind of semi field shoot with about 4-5 targets at unmarked ranges and hunting like conditions. A flight test I think would be great as well. I also think we should have a best made spear thrower competition to test peoples craftsmanship and primitive skills etc.
potential classes
Hand thrown
(javelin class I thought we might get some reenactor types)
baton de commmandment
primitive spear thrower (we might need more classes for example simple, atlatl, inuit etc)
open (alumimum shafts and other non primitive materials)
board designs here.
http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/designs/index.htm#arc
The nice thing about this is that being new we can more or less make it up ourselves. The american thing would be fairly popular i think with some kind of semi field shoot with about 4-5 targets at unmarked ranges and hunting like conditions. A flight test I think would be great as well. I also think we should have a best made spear thrower competition to test peoples craftsmanship and primitive skills etc.
potential classes
Hand thrown
(javelin class I thought we might get some reenactor types)
baton de commmandment
primitive spear thrower (we might need more classes for example simple, atlatl, inuit etc)
open (alumimum shafts and other non primitive materials)
board designs here.
http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/designs/index.htm#arc
that's a good collection of atlatls...but I like what Tom mills has to say at the bottom of his 3 minute elderberry atlatl....."Atlatls are simple to make...it's the dart that you have to get right!"....
I just had a go at the speerschluder I made from chesnut (prob not a good choice of wood) it's quite a rough and ready version but it feels really good in the hand. I was throwing a 4 foot dart I made from a hazel shoot No head and with high fletchings so not a distance contender. We got it out to around 60 yards though. Am off to buy some wood to make inuit style ones. I liked the side swipe cast but feel i am more accurate when i cast overarm.
I go overarm all the time. Side arm is a bit Like the horizontal swing in slinging. Timing is everything. In overarm/vertical swing means the projectile is always in the plane of the target. So you only need to worry about elevation.
BTW I'm not qualified to doubt atlatlBob's mathematical assertions about flexible darts but doesn't the physics say that any energy stored in the dart with flexing will equally force it forward AND back? Equal and opposite etc. Is that Newton's Third law?
I have used stiff (bamboo) and very floppy (green hazel) darts. I think the harder darts are more accurate and have a more efficient energy transfer. I'm making a VERY stiff and heavy dart from ipe for testing.
I also consider tha atl-atl a limb extension rather than an energy storage device because at least some release of stored enery would be after the resisting force has been released. The best terminal speed should be achieved with a rigid board.
But what do I know
One of the things that might come out of this 'shoot' is a comparison of designs. I'm very willing to be proved wrong,
BTW I'm not qualified to doubt atlatlBob's mathematical assertions about flexible darts but doesn't the physics say that any energy stored in the dart with flexing will equally force it forward AND back? Equal and opposite etc. Is that Newton's Third law?
I have used stiff (bamboo) and very floppy (green hazel) darts. I think the harder darts are more accurate and have a more efficient energy transfer. I'm making a VERY stiff and heavy dart from ipe for testing.
I also consider tha atl-atl a limb extension rather than an energy storage device because at least some release of stored enery would be after the resisting force has been released. The best terminal speed should be achieved with a rigid board.
But what do I know
One of the things that might come out of this 'shoot' is a comparison of designs. I'm very willing to be proved wrong,
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