To be more serious I have read all the replys on the forum and it sounds to me that everyone is a lawabiding person. But everyone is feeling anxiety about the future of yours and my Bushcrafting. Can I carry carn't I carry a knife. This anxiety stems from the way ower Goverment is treating its people. It is not yours or my fault. but yet we are all feel guilty deep down. That it is we that are doing some thing wrong. Fear that if challenged by the Police. That we will be put in to a Policecar and taken to a police station and have your dignaty striped away and end up with a criminal record cutting you off any future high paying jobs or loseing the job you have. "How will I pay the morgage feed my family" ect' and so the Anxiety builds It makes me wonder if the Goverment is trying to run the country by Fear as frightened people are easy to control. Just look at the way the third reich ran Europe. But I digress. You have to decide are you frightened of your own Goverment or not. If the anwser is YES I am afraid then Bushcrafting is not for you If the anwser is NO then you may have to fight in court for your liberty and risk all. Saying that 99% of all Policemen in this Country are good guys and do a thankless job and will not give you a hard time. It is the 1% that everybody is afraid of. There by taking us back to the feelings of Anxiety. And round and round she go's where she stops no onebody knows.
Not More Knife Law
- Thread starter entropydog
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No, what you are doing at the moment is illegal.
You say....
If you are actually bushcrafting, or travelling to or from such, then I would say it is a valid reason, but that is not what you are doing. You are casually carrying a knife that is not of a type allowed to be casually carried in law. I would suggest you stop doing this as your job is on the line. If you genuinely are going to do something that requires such a knife, then by all means carry one and if you do get pulled, argue tooth and nail. Be prepared to go to court and never accept a caution.
But if what you want is a knife to casually carry just in case, then pick one that is legal for that purpose, a non-locking folder with a blade under 3".
Dont casually carry a fixed blade knife just in case and bank on dreaming up an excuse if you get pulled. It wont wash and your avoidance of a criminal conviction will hinge on you lying through your teeth. Some people might be happy doing that, but it's not a good plan if your job rests on passing an enhanced CRB. A conviction (or even a caution) for possession of an offensive weapon may well cost you your job.
Dont blag it! If you have a good reason to carry a knife, then carry one. If you dont have a reason, dont risk your job and your record by making one up.
What has it got to do with bushcraft? If you need a knife, you need a knife. Carry one and be damned. But if you dont, then you are breaking the law. It's got nothing to do with bushcraft amd it's not a holy crusade! The reality is, just being in the countryside doesnt require a knife. Lighting fires and camping on private land without permission, is not legal. Lighting fires and camping on common land probably contravenes some bylaws. Wild camping is not legal in England. For you to be legal, you really need to be on private land, with the landowners permission to camp and light fires. That's not something that happens casually. If you get arrested on private property (which is almost all of Britain), you wont be the peoples hero, you'll just be unemployed with a conviction for carrying an offensive weapon, as well as for vagrancy, poaching and trespass.
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Sorry, nope.
This is a typical misunderstanding that stirs up strong feelings. It is not illegal to carry any knife at all (unless it is a specifically prohibited knife such as a gravity blade or balisong). It becomes illegal if you do not have a reasonable excuse and the.knife does not meet the sect. 139 exemption. I could carry one of my 2 foot long bayonets in a public place if, for example, I'm taking it to a dealer for a valuation. How about a Stanley knife if I'm a carpet fitter or a medical sales rep with what full of scalpels and saws?
Yep, all legal.
If I was to go for night down the pub and had my bayonet in a bag under the table when I could have left it at home then I would not have a reasonable excuse and will be committing an offence.
As for the axe 3 bears is spot on. ANY pointed or bladed article needs reasonable excuse. Axe, Laplander saw, one of those Chinese military shovels with the razor edges or just a screwdriver, they all need an excuse.
I've been 'stopped and searched'. Part of a program at the train station, conducted under anti-terrorist laws, but actually (as explained by the policeman who stopped me), designed to reduce the number of yobs boarding trains tooled up.
I was specifically picked to be stopped because they have a 'quota' system to ensure they aren't picking on any group (say, shaven-headed young men wearing bovver boots). I was the 'middle-aged white male' on that copper's quota.
Personally, I didn't mind at all. The officer was polite, efficient and respectful. It was a good opportunity for my daughter (who was with me) to meet a police officer in the course of their duties and learn that they are approachable.
Everybody stop Using them illegal cars they have (that actually kill more people a month than knives do a year)
Ah wait .........no your right Cars arn't illegal but have the potential to be ie pretty much all are capable of doing more than 70mph in a public place. (think we should have a police amnesty to had em in )
guess every body only drives at 25 just to be sure they dont get pulled over.
I get fed up of Joe public coming up to my stand and saying arnt these knives Illegal but after a short conversation and explaining the law and that they probably have bigger knives at home for carving the Christmas turkey and slicing bread etc The light slowly goes on and we can have a sensible conversation about sharp tools.
Its really hard work when an community who use sharply pointed and blades objects and in general should know better constantly reinforce the ALL knives are illegal sterotypical garbage.
Hell Ive been invited (insisted that i go ) to put a stall at the primary school Christmas craft fair so there's something that can be bought for mens Christmas presents among the home made Cake and Christmas card stands
ATB
Duncan
Ah wait .........no your right Cars arn't illegal but have the potential to be ie pretty much all are capable of doing more than 70mph in a public place. (think we should have a police amnesty to had em in )
guess every body only drives at 25 just to be sure they dont get pulled over.
I get fed up of Joe public coming up to my stand and saying arnt these knives Illegal but after a short conversation and explaining the law and that they probably have bigger knives at home for carving the Christmas turkey and slicing bread etc The light slowly goes on and we can have a sensible conversation about sharp tools.
Its really hard work when an community who use sharply pointed and blades objects and in general should know better constantly reinforce the ALL knives are illegal sterotypical garbage.
Hell Ive been invited (insisted that i go ) to put a stall at the primary school Christmas craft fair so there's something that can be bought for mens Christmas presents among the home made Cake and Christmas card stands
ATB
Duncan
Do they take those carving knives out and about with them?
well they got them from the shop to home without committing an offence
the point is the Knives are not illegal in themselves and yes they could take them out with good reason
going to a friends to cook dinner etc
bringing them to me to sharpen etc
going camping for food prep
ATB
Duncan
I wonder if we could all discuss the other side of this argument, how would you structure the law on knife carry??
I personally think the law is adequate at the minute and i dont think i could come up with a better one that wouldnt way the advantage towards your average chimp waste of good pencil carbon ejit.
What i mean is do we say all knives are ok to carry by everyone? So does that mean its ok for the local chimp that swings around the local shops causing grief to carry a machete or a large Rambo jobby? If we say ok you only need a flimsy reason excuse to carry, whats to say the chimpo doesnt have one such as whittling a pointy stick or cutting up his apple? Then the copper who knows said chimp is upto no good has no valid reason to bang the little muppet up without risking "infringing his human rights" or discrimination because he is a less evolved than the rest of us.
Its a rock and hard place as i see and the law at the minute gives the coppers the chance to pull the muppet off the street and ask him to provide an excuse in court, which i think is a good idea. I am more than happy to provide a reason for my carry. I dont trespass with a fixed blade and when I do carry a fixed its kept in my ruk until it needs to be used. Every day i carry a little folding EDC with is MORE than adequate for cutting string, fruit boxes, little bit of whittling etc.
I do not see the need for a fixed blade outside of camp chores. In regards to the locking bit, come on its a fixed blade really isnt it and therefore a lot better at stabbing than a slippy? I cant think of a single daily task taht i would need a fixed or locker for, a slippy suits me fine.
I personally think the law is adequate at the minute and i dont think i could come up with a better one that wouldnt way the advantage towards your average chimp waste of good pencil carbon ejit.
What i mean is do we say all knives are ok to carry by everyone? So does that mean its ok for the local chimp that swings around the local shops causing grief to carry a machete or a large Rambo jobby? If we say ok you only need a flimsy reason excuse to carry, whats to say the chimpo doesnt have one such as whittling a pointy stick or cutting up his apple? Then the copper who knows said chimp is upto no good has no valid reason to bang the little muppet up without risking "infringing his human rights" or discrimination because he is a less evolved than the rest of us.
Its a rock and hard place as i see and the law at the minute gives the coppers the chance to pull the muppet off the street and ask him to provide an excuse in court, which i think is a good idea. I am more than happy to provide a reason for my carry. I dont trespass with a fixed blade and when I do carry a fixed its kept in my ruk until it needs to be used. Every day i carry a little folding EDC with is MORE than adequate for cutting string, fruit boxes, little bit of whittling etc.
I do not see the need for a fixed blade outside of camp chores. In regards to the locking bit, come on its a fixed blade really isnt it and therefore a lot better at stabbing than a slippy? I cant think of a single daily task taht i would need a fixed or locker for, a slippy suits me fine.
the law is fine as is you can carry to use any sharp you need if you want to use it
As long as the police (on the street) are allowed to use their personal discretion at each case then that's fine. Its when the Media starts running the policy so Chief inspectors say a copper has to bring in and arrest any body with a knife for what ever reason and judges are told to hand out mandatory max sentences. Thus removing any ability of the law to take anything into consideration so the PC and media take over the Law with little or no effect on lawlessness.
only things i would change (which will never happen) is to let sub 3" blades have locks for EDC which was the original intention of the committee who drew up the act after extensive consultation and was fully agreed to be the case through out the Harris case including the House of Lords but they upheld the judges right to interpret a badly written piece of law that way.
I would also like to see something done to improve the selling to under 18 situation as the only crime is committed by the seller even if the youth has used fraudulent means to get you to commit the offence. especially as under 18s are perfectly entitled to own and use a knife of any type any body else is. even a 5yr old can carry a EDC pen knife with no reason (actually they can buy one as well as EDC Slippy is exempt the age limit)
especially as in Scotland who profess to have a massive knife problem and even require knife sellers to register with the council and shops not to display knives in the window
oh except kitchen and domestic knifes which is fine and can be bought at 16 up ( tell me what type is used for most knife crimes )
then again a 16yr old can leave home and get a job and a flat would probably be against his human rights to prevent him buying knives for food prep in his own home.
ATB
Duncan
Good job I just found a little Land Rover folder (made by Rodgers of Sheffield) in an old survival kit I'd put together years ago - that's going in my EDC satchel
for Ref heres the CPS guidance on selecting and prosecuting
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offensive_weapons_knives_bladed_and_pointed_articles/#a07
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/l_to_o/offensive_weapons_knives_bladed_and_pointed_articles/#a07
Surely this makes no difference to the actual law and the legality of your acts though? If you're carrying a sub-3in non-folder, or any other bladed article with good cause, and the cops MUST bring you in, charge you and take you to court due to force policy, that doesn't mean that you are guilty of anything, just that the police/CPS are taking cases to court that should not necessarily go there.
When it comes out in court that it is not prohibited for you to have such a knife all I can see is the case getting thrown out and the police/justice system getting accused of wasting time, money and effort. They can't convict you of an offence that isn't on the statute books, no matter what some chief constable or newspaper editor says - doing so would be a crime in itself! No sentence, max or otherwise, to worry about.
Or, do I have an unfounded or naive belief in the judicial process? Are there local rules and byelaws that make it illegal for you to have a knife that is allowed under the general law that can catch you out (apart from the obvious one everyone knows, on the air-side of an airport terminal)?
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I go bushcrafting with, amongst other people, a Police officer who is about to retire. When I asked him about this same thing a while back he said that it would need to be a right idiot of a copper to give me any grief.
If your in a wooded area, with sharps, you really have nothing to worry about. I often park the jeep and go walking down to the woods on a public access footpath with the handle of my condor golok sticking out my daysack, as it's too long to fit it all in. All other sharps out of sight.
Stand around an urban street corner with a daysack and a machete however, and be assured, you're in for an entertaining evening.
Context, as with most things, is the key.
If your in a wooded area, with sharps, you really have nothing to worry about. I often park the jeep and go walking down to the woods on a public access footpath with the handle of my condor golok sticking out my daysack, as it's too long to fit it all in. All other sharps out of sight.
Stand around an urban street corner with a daysack and a machete however, and be assured, you're in for an entertaining evening.
Context, as with most things, is the key.
No a copper does not have to bring you in (as told by a copper mate) he can choose to ignore it, give you a bollocking and send you home and dont do it again even if you blatantly are breaking the actual letter of the law.
thats why letting the bobby on the street assess the situation and make a decision based on those facts is best. not tie his hands by Media led hype so politicians can keep a job
ATB
Duncan
The current law is fine.
My son is 19, frequently goes about town with 3 sharp knives over 8" on his person. Perfectly legal (he's a chef and keeps them in a roll at the bottom of his bag).
I carry a locking SAK with a 3.5" blade - that's fine, too, because it's a boating model and I live part of the time on a boat. Because the river floods without warning, sometimes I have to go to the mooring on the way home and *NEED* a knife.
Now some psycho nutter walks down the street with a sharpened bit of broomhandle - the cops can pull them in and charge them.
It's all about attitude, intent and reasonable use/behaviour.
My son is 19, frequently goes about town with 3 sharp knives over 8" on his person. Perfectly legal (he's a chef and keeps them in a roll at the bottom of his bag).
I carry a locking SAK with a 3.5" blade - that's fine, too, because it's a boating model and I live part of the time on a boat. Because the river floods without warning, sometimes I have to go to the mooring on the way home and *NEED* a knife.
Now some psycho nutter walks down the street with a sharpened bit of broomhandle - the cops can pull them in and charge them.
It's all about attitude, intent and reasonable use/behaviour.
I used the Bushcraft metaphor as this is a Bushcraft forum that was the only reason. I have carfully read the law on knives or the law on pointy things as I like to call it and I can not agree with you more on every things you have said. I am not talking about the right or wrong thing to do what I am trying to understand is why is everyone feeling so anxious about. what if your read the law there is no a problem. But everyone is feeling a lot of unwarranted Anxiaty over this. Why are we made to feel that we are doing something wrong by ower owen Goverment.The law says one thing that everything is OK and the Goverment is making use feel another that it is not OK.
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Because the way the law (section 139) works, puts the burden of proof on us, not the prosecution. We might think we have good reason to carry, but we have to prove that in court. We are, in effect, guilty until proven innocent.
A sad state of affairs really when you compare it to some other countries in which wearing a knife is commonplace - it is regarded as a useful everyday tool, not as a means of carrying out a violent crime.
I think in the situation the UK is currently in it is necessary and beneficial to have these laws to try and mitigate knife crime, but in a sense, if we have gotten to the stage where this is necessary, we have already lost a great deal of the struggle. With knife crime relatively widespread and carrying for violent purposes or 'protecshun' normalised in certain circles, we have deeper problems in society than any legislation can really take care of.
I think in the situation the UK is currently in it is necessary and beneficial to have these laws to try and mitigate knife crime, but in a sense, if we have gotten to the stage where this is necessary, we have already lost a great deal of the struggle. With knife crime relatively widespread and carrying for violent purposes or 'protecshun' normalised in certain circles, we have deeper problems in society than any legislation can really take care of.
When I first ready your response I interprited the work 'carry' wrong. You are correct you can't just have fixed blade on you incase you want to do a bit of bushcraft - you can travel with such an item if you are going to or coming from such activities bur re-reading the OP's post made me realise your quite correct, you cant just carry a fixed blade 'out and about'
only one layer to the issue and you'd be a fool to acept a caution based on an officers opinion
if nesessary use the courts its what they are therefore
here rests the evidence for the defence m'lord
spot on
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