Defender V Hilux, Head V Heart

[Lupin Rider]

I'm getting a little confused here. This (and a couple of previous posts) seems to indicate that not all vehicles have airbags. I was under the impression that they are required in the ?(and had been for at least 7 years)

That said, while I was on patrol, as a sheriff's deputy, I attended several crashes in which the air bags did not deploy. Without investigating further (regarding the airbags) I suspect the CO2 cartridges had lost their charge over the years (no vehicle I know of has an inspection of said catridge in it's service schedule)

No, there are no airbags at all on a landrover defender. It has no safety features. No traction control (unless brandnew) no antilock breaks, corrode in the rain, have rust on them from the showrooom etc.

But look fantastic, is a piece of history and hence the heart vs head dilema.

 

[Lupin Rider]

I'm getting a little confused here. This (and a couple of previous posts) seems to indicate that not all vehicles have airbags. I was under the impression that they are required in the ?(and had been for at least 7 years)

That said, while I was on patrol, as a sheriff's deputy, I attended several crashes in which the air bags did not deploy. Without investigating further (regarding the airbags) I suspect the CO2 cartridges had lost their charge over the years (no vehicle I know of has an inspection of said catridge in it's service schedule)

Any airbag ive seen has a pyrotechnic deployment not co2. Hence the common problem of burns from the hot gasses or friction from deployment. Most are speed activated and will deploy slowly for a slow bump, or faster for a high speed bump.

 

[santaman2000]

Any airbag ive seen has a pyrotechnic deployment not co2. Hence the common problem of burns from the hot gasses or friction from deployment. Most are speed activated and will deploy slowly for a slow bump, or faster for a high speed bump.

Ah. So they are different from the ones here.

 

[Laurentius]

Mitsubishi, and don't pay more than a grand for it, you'll more than you'll get for spending the same on a Landie or Toyota. Of course the problem is if something serious goes wrong, it'll cost you a lot, but then just go and by another one and don't spend more than a grand for it I am onto my second Pajero, this one being a Mk2 and it is so much more reliable than anything I have ever driven before, automatic as well.

 

[baggins]

Adam, it's not that i'm no spanner monkey, it's just a time thing. 10 hrs a day climbing trees and repairing the multitude of chippers, saws etc, generally leaves me no time for working on my own stuff. You know what they say about blacksmiths and wooden spoons, lol!
Santaman, here in UK, there are still plenty of cars you can buy without airbags. It's the main reason there aren't many defenders in the US, as they don't meet the legislation.

 

[santaman2000]

Adam, it's not that i'm no spanner monkey, it's just a time thing. 10 hrs a day climbing trees and repairing the multitude of chippers, saws etc, generally leaves me no time for working on my own stuff. You know what they say about blacksmiths and wooden spoons, lol!...

Agreed, I know the feeling well. However, regardless of the reason why you need someone else to do the mechanical work, you still need to budget it if that's the case.

 

[santaman2000]

...Santaman, here in UK, there are still plenty of cars you can buy without airbags. It's the main reason there aren't many defenders in the US, as they don't meet the legislation.

There aren't ANY Defenders in the US. Or anywhere else in North America. They haven't been offerred here for decades (even before airbags were required over here)

 

[cbr6fs]

Ah. So they are different from the ones here.

I've never heard of a car airbag using CO2 mate, so i think there must be some confusion.

All car airbags use a inflater unit that starts off a dramatic chemical reaction that results in a mainly Nitrogen (N2) discharge.
Most airbags will be around 50 litres in size and deploy in 0.04 seconds, so a CO2 cartridge would have to be huge to inflate one.


With regards to the thread.
Go with your head.

Defenders are shockingly bad cars, they were terrible 40 years ago and they're still terrible.
For your money you could have a car that's more reliable, more comfortable, more efficient, safer and you don't end gnashing your teeth after 20 mins on the road.

Unless you do some serious off-roading or green laneing i'd suggest a fwd car rather than a 4x4.
It'll be cheaper to run, less repair bills, more efficient on the road and green laneing aside it'll do 99% of what most 4x4's ever see in their life times.
With the money you save on fuel you could buy a second set of wheels with off-road or winter tyres

When we had bad snow here a few years ago it was my main form of entertainment sailing up hills past stuck 4x4's in the Mrs's fwd Megane, their faces were an absolute picture :yelrotflm

Of course i didn't tell them i had fitted winter tyres

 

[santaman2000]

I've never heard of a car airbag using CO2 mate, so i think there must be some confusion.

All car airbags use a inflater unit that starts off a dramatic chemical reaction that results in a mainly Nitrogen (N2) discharge.
Most airbags will be around 50 litres in size and deploy in 0.04 seconds, so a CO2 cartridge would have to be huge to inflate one...

Possibly so, but that shoots holes in my theory as to why so few of them actually deploy in an accident. I've NEVER actually seen one that had deployed, and those I've heard of deploying can be counted on one hand with change to spare.

 

[cbr6fs]

Possibly so, but that shoots holes in my theory as to why so few of them actually deploy in an accident. I've NEVER actually seen one that had deployed, and those I've heard of deploying can be counted on one hand with change to spare.

Worth considering that when an airbag does deploy it's an extremely violent event, you basically have a explosion 1m from your face.
So a collision has to be pretty severe before a airbag will be activated.

 

[santaman2000]

Worth considering that when an airbag does deploy it's an extremely violent event, you basically have a explosion 1m from your face.
So a collision has to be pretty severe before a airbag will be activated.

IIRC they're supposed to go off over here if the impact speed is more than 15 MPH. Not really that much of a collision.

 

[cbr6fs]

IIRC they're supposed to go off over here if the impact speed is more than 15 MPH. Not really that much of a collision.

All the airbags i know of are set off by G-sensor readings.

 

[santaman2000]

All the airbags i know of are set off by G-sensor readings.

Don't know how the sensors work really, just what the NTSB standards are.

 

[Lupin Rider]

Mine deployed in a head on collision. I and the other car (lotus elise) were doing about 40mph when he rounded the corner on wrong side of double white line. Police estimated 30ish each at point of collision. Intererstingly it was the passenger airbag that broke e windscreen as the dash blew open.

Made quite a mess! And i burnt my hand. And i didnt buy a defender although i wanted one.

 

[Laurentius]

Is it possible to have airbags de-activated, or is that an MOT failure if they are (how would they check?)

I have never owned a car with airbags, though doubtless I have driven a few hire cars with them, they make me nervous, and that in itself is not a desirable safety feature. I don't know whether my current car has ABS, I don't really figure on finding out. I used to drive an old series 3, and I drove that very cautiously (except for the time I crashed it into a hedge) the brakes were atrocious and the steering very imprecise.

 

[789987]

most modern cars have switches so you can deactivate them - well the passengers one anyway

you would know if it has abs if you get that kind of grinding sound / feeling when you break hard. that or you need new pads.

 

[cbr6fs]

Is it possible to have airbags de-activated, or is that an MOT failure if they are (how would they check?)

I have never owned a car with airbags, though doubtless I have driven a few hire cars with them, they make me nervous, and that in itself is not a desirable safety feature. I don't know whether my current car has ABS, I don't really figure on finding out. I used to drive an old series 3, and I drove that very cautiously (except for the time I crashed it into a hedge) the brakes were atrocious and the steering very imprecise.

As far as i understand it, as of Jan 2012 air bags if factory fitted must be working the air bag as well of several other dash warning lights are now tested.

There is nothing to be nervous of.
If they deploy it is a violent act for sure BUT if they don't deploy your body faces an even more violent act.

Air bags really are these best option if your involved in a collision, there is absolutely no doubt in that.

If your car was produced after around 1996 then there is a very good chance it has ABS.
There are exceptions, indeed there are cars that are still produced that are not fitted with ABS, but the vast vast majority of cars from 1996 onwards come factory fitted with ABS.

The first generation ABS systems of old were pretty poor, i have made comparisons with early systems and have found that on a small tight track i was able to consistently lap quicker with the ABS disabled.

BUT the newest generation is pretty fantastic and in my current 2005 Audi A3 the ABS system makes absolutely no difference to lap times, with current electronics your talking about the car carrying out measurements and reacting within 1/8th of a revolution of a wheel at 60 mph.

Should also say that even though i've been racing cars and bikes for just under 30 years, on a public road i would still prefer my car to have ABS.
I am well versed and experienced in brake modulation (to get to the point of locking up and release slightly) even with my left foot BUT still i cannot modulate anywhere near as quick as a modern ABS system, plus there are also times when even experienced drivers forget everything and just jump on the brake pedal.

There are (as always) exceptions like when driving on ice with unsuitable tyres, or certain off-roading where ABS can cause problems, to be honest though if your skidding over ice with no grip then ABS is the least of your worries.

So my advice is to leave the air bag and ABS to do it's job.

 

[santaman2000]

Is it possible to have airbags de-activated, or is that an MOT failure if they are (how would they check?)

I have never owned a car with airbags, though doubtless I have driven a few hire cars with them, they make me nervous, and that in itself is not a desirable safety feature. I don't know whether my current car has ABS, I don't really figure on finding out. I used to drive an old series 3, and I drove that very cautiously (except for the time I crashed it into a hedge) the brakes were atrocious and the steering very imprecise.

Air bags have been require on new cars over here for a a decade or 2 over here. I was told by a friend in the England that they were required over there now as well (that conversation was 8 years ago) hence I just took it for granted; apparently he, and hence I, were wrong if this thread is accurate. I doubt if the MOT inspection would detect if one had been deativated as checking would likely involve expensive dismantling and reassemly.

Over here single cab pick-ups (regular 2 door trucks with only a front seat) need the de-ativation switch for the passenger side because that's where the child seat is fitted in vehicles without a back seat and an airbag deployment onto a rear facing child seat is less than desirable (grossly understated) As I remember child seats aren't allowewd in the front seat in the UK. If theswitches are in vehicles there, it's likely because the vehicle manufacturer wants to cut costs bu deviating from the standard model as rarely as possible.

 

[santaman2000]

As far as i understand it, as of Jan 2012 air bags if factory fitted must be working the air bag as well of several other dash warning lights are now tested.

There is nothing to be nervous of.
If they deploy it is a violent act for sure BUT if they don't deploy your body faces an even more violent act.

Air bags really are these best option if your involved in a collision, there is absolutely no doubt in that....

Agreed. Except for the child seat issue I posted about. But it should be noted that beause of the way air bags operate, the drivers' education courses changed their curriculum a few years ago. The old courses and conventional logic taught that proper hand placement on the steering wheel was at the 10 and 2 o'clock position, Unfortunately. in the event of an airbag deployment, this drives the hands and arms into the drivers face. Now conventional logic (and the current curriculum) teaches placement at 3 and 9 o'clock to prevent this and still maintain control.

 

[Lupin Rider]

Agreed. Except for the child seat issue I posted about. But it should be noted that beause of the way air bags operate, the drivers' education courses changed their curriculum a few years ago. The old courses and conventional logic taught that proper hand placement on the steering wheel was at the 10 and 2 o'clock position, Unfortunately. in the event of an airbag deployment, this drives the hands and arms into the drivers face. Now conventional logic (and the current curriculum) teaches placement at 3 and 9 o'clock to prevent this and still maintain control.

Thats interesting, i had hands at 9 3. I do Recall car lifting upwards on its nose as it crushed the tw4ts lotus and aseeing a white mushroom sized circle centre of the steering wheel. Then bang it was all over. Bag deployed between my forarms in an instant. Hight hand still on wheel afterwards. Was slightly confused initially rapidly followed by rage at the idiot. Followed by shock shakes. Without the bag id certainly had other other things to worry about. My shoulder has not fully recovered though, the burns healed ok with no scar. The lotus had no abs, nor airbags and was a mess and the fire crew cut its passenger out. My ford focus had abs, ebd, airbags and i was able to open the door normally and get out.

It was damnded loud! My ears rang for hours. I supose its a bit like holding a firework? And the white talc bag lubricant goes everywhere.