Water absorption

[Ray Britton]

forrestdweller.

Can you explain your example in more detail please.

I ask, as I have seen a few folks (low 'digits' in number), and know of many examples of folks who eat nothing at all for a long period (the most famous ones being in the order of months) in a western European environment, who have still absorbed water, until they eventually died. Although they suffered all the usual symptoms of food deprivation, they did still absorb water long after they had last eaten food of any kind, with some taking over a month (after food) to be really showing signs of very poor water absorption (despite still taking fluids).

Even if we were to use the well known (but incorrect) phrase of: Three minutes without air; three days without water; three months without food, what time scale are you referring to with the zero absorption thesis?

 

[SMARTY]

Ray, your a gent sir. The seat is is for F16 and Mirage. This question is one I'm asked a lot by the "clients". The cooling thing may be possible with the next gen G equipment and the environmental suite as used for Typhoon etc.

All of the research I've done so far gives conflicting info, sports science says cold, medical types say warm, others suggest hot. The key here is to get it through the stomach into the blood stream as quick as possible. The feeling of thirst does not go away with complete hydration and people still drink. On average the body can absorb roughly one litre per hour through the gut, but we can drink, and drink untill we actually fill up. This means that anything over that one litre will be passed as waste.

The temps here are very extreme at times (50 degrees plus in the shade, no wind and high humidity) The rate of dehydration is fast, so all of this has to be considered when working out how much water to give these fellas in the seat packs, and we haven't even considered post ejection injuries etc.

Thanks for all of your input so far and I'll let you know how this infidel gets on.

 

[UltimateSurvivor]

forrestdweller.

Can you explain your example in more detail please.

I ask, as I have seen a few folks (low 'digits' in number), and know of many examples of folks who eat nothing at all for a long period (the most famous ones being in the order of months) in a western European environment, who have still absorbed water, until they eventually died. Although they suffered all the usual symptoms of food deprivation, they did still absorb water long after they had last eaten food of any kind, with some taking over a month (after food) to be really showing signs of very poor water absorption (despite still taking fluids).

Even if we were to use the well known (but incorrect) phrase of: Three minutes without air; three days without water; three months without food, what time scale are you referring to with the zero absorption thesis?

Although forrestdweller was incorrect in the way he put this theory forward it does hold some truth.

The human body can absorb water without food for quite some time. However, If you enter a caloric deficit, your metabolic rate then turns to catabolism. This is how people lose weight via excersise and diet. Bodybuilders simply reverse the principle and create a caloric excess. The body then uses the various nutrients, Protein being the main, to build muscle fibres. This is called Anabolism.

After several weeks in a survival situation without food. Your body will have passed through the catabolic stage, Mobilized all its fat stores and even destroyed it's own muscle in an attempt to create energy. The time taken for these various phases to end are unique and specific to each person. Their body fat levels and muscularity defines how long it will last.

Once this process has expried, you are in theory starving to death. Cells cannot gain the necessary energy to respire. Because of the lack of fuel (food) digested, the body cannot absorb water proficiently and will eventually shut down.

In summary;

You can absorb water without food for certain amounts of time. This varies with each individual. However a lack of food will eventually lead to the body being unable to rehydrate itself efficiently.

Regards.

 

[Ray Britton]

SMARTY.

One quick thing in reference to dehydration. Assuming that the Aircrew may only need to survive until SAR/CSAR arrives, if it is the case where they do not have to move from the aircraft (exercise ejection, and not ops), do they have 'suspender clips' (the sort from ladies basques etc) in the seat packs to use for quick and easy rigging of parachutes into sun shades/shelters?

The RAF use them, and they are bloody brilliant, as it means the aircrew don't need to know any knots, or find stones (to wrap paracord around) and can knock up a teepee/shelter in no time at all.
Although most of us know how to tie knots (well let's hope so lol), it can be a bit hard to focus your mind, after being fired through the canopy, and landing with a painful back, if not worse lol.

Sorry if you know all of this already, and I am teaching you to suck eggs, but the suspender clips are a good way to lessen the need for water in the first place by having shelter, or more aptly in the desert, double layered cover). They are sold by BCB Cardiff, and form part of their Aircrew survival pack. Another useful product they sell (for aircrew) is their world famous 'dehydrated water'.

Edited to add. In regards to food in the seat pack, are you going to remove any protein food in the pack (I cant think of any that would be in there though lol), and use only the usual carb stuff like glucose sweets (good old barley sugar lol), to avoid the protein foods robbing the body of more water?

 

[Ray Britton]

ultimate survivor.

Please don't think I was casting doubt on what forrestdweller said, as to whether it was true or not (sorry if we are at crossed purposes), but I was merely after clarification of time frames, even if approximate.

 

[UltimateSurvivor]

ultimate survivor.

Please don't think I was casting doubt on what forrestdweller said, as to whether it was true or not (sorry if we are at crossed purposes), but I was merely after clarification of time frames, even if approximate.

Hi Ray,

I'm in agreement with your point. I was just helping out with forrestdwellers post somewhat. Although i'm sure he would have explained it himself.

All the best, Ray.

 

[Dirk_McStabbins]

Heating water takes the small calories, not the big ones. That is to heat 1 litre of water through ten degrees Celsius takes ten food calories or 42 kiloJoules. Not exactly an enormous load on the human body, even if it's just punched out of a Typhoon.

Is that why I can't lose weight no matter how many cold beers I drink?

 

[forrestdweller]

o.k., to hopefully bring some clarification: ultimatesurvivor, what i described was NOT a theory! it may be not of an issue in temperate climate, but in tropical areas.
both of the two following incidents happened in the northern part of gods own country, the best and most beautiful country on earth, my spiritual home(which i desperately hope to see again one day!)... or as most people call it nowadays: "australia". for those not familiar with that particiular corner of the world: during the build-up(beginning of wet season) both humidity and temperature are rising until you feel like in a sauna. i'm talking of temperatures of over 45degrees celsius(one friend had an extreme of 52 degrees one day) in the shade and humidity around 80% (one day i had 98%). or in other words: the cooling system of the human body does not function very well as there's next to no evaporation.
the first incident which i witnessed was about 4years ago whilst working on a farm, picking melons. one guy started to throw up pure water(i did'nt analyze it but it looked like just water!) and he told us afterwards that he had problems with the heat and totally lost his appetite(not uncommon under this conditions) and had not eaten anything.
the second incident happened last year to me at the end of the wetseason. i was out bush for a walk- a rather sponaneous idea as i had an unexpected extra free day after the weekend so i grabbed my gear and some food, rested my faithful mate forrest on my shoulder and went out to explore an area where i had not been before but always wanted to go. i'd planned to be out latest by monday late morning but it took a bit longer as i had to push my way for hours on end through chest-high speargrass and to get around still-flooded areas which added to the length of my walk. i'd not much eaten on the second evening and the last morning(due to loss of appetite) and nothing at all during the last day, so my stomach was totally empty. during the afternoon we had a short thunderstorm (which increased the humidity) while i was struggling through another area of speargrass, so i got rather sweaty and thirsty and had a drink of water(of which i'd enough!). i still felt thirsty so i had more water(not in one big load-in small amounts over an hour or so!!!) until all of a sudden and without a warning(once i managed three days without eating (but drinking water) during central european spring without experiencing any kind of problems) i got bad stomachpain and started to throw up until there was nothing left to throw up but my stomach(muscles) still went through the motion of throwing up. somehow i managed to get out of the bush before nightfall and then laid for several hours curled up like an embryo(throwing up several more times) with bad pain in my kidneys(like somebody kicking in them)at the floor of a picnicshelter. i've no idea how i managed to walk the 8-10km back to my friends(i'd told them of my plan) house in the middle of the night to prevent them from reporting me missing the next day... .
believe me it's something i do NOT wish to experience again... .

 

[UltimateSurvivor]

o.k., to hopefully bring some clarification: ultimatesurvivor, what i described was NOT a theory! it may be not of an issue in temperate climate, but in tropical areas.
both of the two following incidents happened in the northern part of gods own country, the best and most beautiful country on earth, my spiritual home(which i desperately hope to see again one day!)... or as most people call it nowadays: "australia". for those not familiar with that particiular corner of the world: during the build-up(beginning of wet season) both humidity and temperature are rising until you feel like in a sauna. i'm talking of temperatures of over 45degrees celsius(one friend had an extreme of 52 degrees one day) in the shade and humidity around 80% (one day i had 98%). or in other words: the cooling system of the human body does not function very well as there's next to no evaporation.
the first incident which i witnessed was about 4years ago whilst working on a farm, picking melons. one guy started to throw up pure water(i did'nt analyze it but it looked like just water!) and he told us afterwards that he had problems with the heat and totally lost his appetite(not uncommon under this conditions) and had not eaten anything.
the second incident happened last year to me at the end of the wetseason. i was out bush for a walk- a rather sponaneous idea as i had an unexpected extra free day after the weekend so i grabbed my gear and some food, rested my faithful mate forrest on my shoulder and went out to explore an area where i had not been before but always wanted to go. i'd planned to be out latest by monday late morning but it took a bit longer as i had to push my way for hours on end through chest-high speargrass and to get around still-flooded areas which added to the length of my walk. i'd not much eaten on the second evening and the last morning(due to loss of appetite) and nothing at all during the last day, so my stomach was totally empty. during the afternoon we had a short thunderstorm (which increased the humidity) while i was struggling through another area of speargrass, so i got rather sweaty and thirsty and had a drink of water(of which i'd enough!). i still felt thirsty so i had more water(not in one big load-in small amounts over an hour or so!!!) until all of a sudden and without a warning(once i managed three days without eating (but drinking water) during central european spring without experiencing any kind of problems) i got bad stomachpain and started to throw up until there was nothing left to throw up but my stomach(muscles) still went through the motion of throwing up. somehow i managed to get out of the bush before nightfall and then laid for several hours curled up like an embryo(throwing up several more times) with bad pain in my kidneys(like somebody kicking in them)at the floor of a picnicshelter. i've no idea how i managed to walk the 8-10km back to my friends(i'd told them of my plan) house in the middle of the night to prevent them from reporting me missing the next day... .
believe me it's something i do NOT wish to experience again... .

Hi foorestdweller,

I'm sorry to hear about you unfortunate incident in Australia. I lived in Arusha, Tanzania, East Africa for several years as a child whilst my father worked at Geita Gold Mines. So i can completely understand the situation you have described.

If you look at various People who have walked out of desert survival situations, they have all been able to Absorb water into their systems without food. You have described the problem yourself,


"i got rather sweaty and thirsty and had a drink of water(of which i had enough) i still felt thirsty so i had more water."

It's easy to take in too much water without knowing. This then forces your stomach to empty the supply of water you've just put into it.

it is ABSOLUTELY possible to absorb water without food. There are countless documented cases (google them) Where people have survived 2-3 weeks without food and only water...

Kind regards.

 

[Ray Britton]

Forrestdweller.
Thanks for the details

UltimateThere are countless documented cases (google them) Where people have survived 2-3 weeks without food and only water...
survivor:

TBH there are plenty of world famous (or infamous) cases of folks surviving for months, rather than weeks after ceasing eating. Check out IRA hunger strikers (if you feel that way inclined lol)

 

[forrestdweller]

well, i'm sure i did NOT drink too much as i know about the problem of overhydration- i remember hearing in radio in 2003 about an incident where a tourist at uluru drank too much- about 10litres in ca. 2hours(everybody had told her to drink plenty of water... . and apperantly the symptoms of over- and dehydration are similar)- until her kidneys collapsed and she had to be flown to alice hospital. my containers held a total of 3,15 litres which i consumed over a time of several hours; and i sweated out quite a bit.
i've been long time under similar conditions like the one i described in my earlier post and quite often drank larger amounts while eating enough in less time without any trouble...

i do know that lot's of people managed long times without or little food- the above-mentioned hungerstrikers, castaways on little rafts/boats, victims of military(prisoners of war/ forced labourers) and ethnic conflicts(like the reservations in the usa in the 19th century, british and german concentration camps etc.); some of them physicly little active, others literally worked to death- whilst still keeping drinking and obviously suffering no ill-effects... .


obviously my experiences are rather rare and whatever it was exactly now i'm better prepared and watch out to make sure it does'nt happen again... . (and hope others could learn from my experience, too)

 

[MikeUK]

Absolutely fascinating post and sub posts, which had me thoroughly engrossed, although I have to admit that there are some parts that I do not fully understand such as “The viscosity of water decreases the hotter it gets and the volume expands.
Don't know about absorption into the gut though.” But I will look into this further.
Thanks

 

[Toddy]

Interesting thread

I was under the impression that water alone wasn't a good way to rehydrate.
The salt/sugar sachets that are mixed in with the water for babies suffering potentially fatal diarrhoea, were supposed to be the most effective way of keeping their bodies functioning until their immune systems got on top of the causes of the diarrhoea.

Incidentally, after hard exercise or effort my stomach refuses to accept cold water. It just sits like a lump in me until the stomach muscles rebel and eject it
Luke warm tea No milk, two sugars, works very well indeed.

Is the rectal infusion truly the best way to get liquid into a person ?? Having twice endured an enema (prior to childbirth) trust me on this, the body does not want to keep liquid in there It gets rid of it asap. I know the lower gut is extremely absorptive, but I suspect there's a limit.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[ged]

... there are some parts that I do not fully understand such as “The viscosity of water decreases the hotter it gets and the volume expands....

Put some cold treacle on your hot porridge and see what happens. That's viscosity changing.

Look at any liquid filled thermometer. That's a liquid expanding when it gets hotter.

Am I answering the right questions?

 

[ged]

Is the rectal infusion truly the best way to get liquid into a person ??

Please define "best".

 

[Toddy]

Frankly I think in any situation there has to be a better way than trying the horrendously traumatising efforts of rectal infusion

Best ? There are only two reasons I can think of to even consider to take in liquid from that end. Either the top end of the body is totally out of commission or the liquid is somehow so dire that it couldn't be drunk. And, both those situations only applicable if there were no way to get medical assistance.
If the wherewithal was available to administer an enema surely the wherewithall to a cook the liquid to clean is available.
The family on the boat with the turtle blood and guts and sea water bilges administering enemas on each other was discredited as just stupidity. One of the adults had read the *survival* potential of rectal infusion and successfully gave everyone the squits.
I believe the divorce happened in pretty short order after rescue.

I really can't see a downed pilot in the desert wanting someone to shove a tube where the sun don't shine and fill him up with liquid.
Frankly, I can't see anyone wanting that. (but hey, high colonic irrigation apparantly floats the boat for some )

Best ? Define scenario

Temperature ? Personally I don't do well with a chilled stomach or a burnt mouth and throat. I reckon middling, but interested to hear the reasoning either way.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[Broch]

Toddy,
My understanding is that it may be the only way of getting fluids (including medication) into the body when nothing will stay down at the other end.

As the 'First Aid and Wilderness Medicine" book says "embarassment is no excuse for not giving a needed enema"

Great thread BTW

Broch

 

[Toddy]

My major issue isn't embarrassment, it's simply that the body ejects the liquid from an enema in short order.
It's not going to do any good.

I really do think that this is one of those *everybody knows* urban myths. I keep waiting for BG to demonstrate it on some *survival* programme

cheers,
M

Sorry Smarty, it wasn't my intention to divert the topic.

 

[Broch]

My gut feel (excuse the pun) is that you may be right as far as water is concerned but medical advice is that it's a very fast way of getting some types of medication in the body. Someone with emergency medical experience should be able to give us definitive guidance although I'm in no rush to try it

Cheers,
Broch

 

[Toddy]

Glad to hear it me neither

Suppositories work, but then they're rather more substantial bulk wise, more of the texture that the lower bowel is supposed to deal with iimmc.

I reckon that if the enema method was so straightforwardly effective then the medical profession would use it over opening up a vein and administering a drip.
No problems of infection, much less expensive, fewer consumables, etc.,
I have yet to see a single instance of a charity asking for money for enema administration kits for third world babies dying of dehydration. Surely if it were so simple, they would consider it a valid process.

As I said, my 2p worth.

(wonder how many 'special forces' members who demonstrated the process are now wondering just what eejit suggested this in the first place now ? )

cheers,
M