The last true hermit

[BlueTrain]

Many interesting thoughts in this thread. I can't live the life I might wish for, so why would I care if anyone else can't, either? All we can do is the best we can.

Crowded? Why is it when there are more and more wild animals, it is good but if it is people, it is bad?

I just got back from Germany a few weeks ago. The country is fairly crowded compared to the United States. Yet, when you drive through the countryside (carefully obeying the posted speed limits), there is a great deal of open space, though not exactly public space. But their little villages are pretty tight. We tend to have sprawling communities so you can have a big lot for your house, be it big or little. Who has the better idea?

Now, about Dick Proeneke: see the following post. Some people don't read real long posts.

 

[BlueTrain]

I am fascinated by Proeneke. I'm not sure he would have liked being called a hermit and anyway, he had a constant stream of visitors. He eventually became quite well known, as a matter of fact. After all, how many hermits produce films about their life?

Although building his own cabin way out there all by himself was an achievement, I find him interesting for the simple way he wrote and what he wrote about. His descriptions of his food, his animal neighbors (and friends), his tramping around the area where his lived are all so enjoyable and relaxing to read and I read his books over and over again. I don't find his writing about dealing with hunter and the park service to be especially interesting, though. But I do particularly like it when he describes his cooking, his housekeeping (yes, his housekeeping) and the winter weather there, which is like no winter weather I've ever experienced. I also envy the simple life he more or less lived.

But I've come to realize that much of what I most enjoy in books and movies is about men who live alone, though not to say as hermits. Still, Lives of the Desert Fathers are pretty interesting, too, though in a different way, to be sure.

I've never lived alone in seclusion and don't even particularly want to, in spite of all of the above.

 

[General Strike]

I suspect that the pattern of housebuilding being different between the US and Germany has as much to do with patterns of land ownership/land use rights as it does with population density. I often notice that although Germany has a lower population density than the UK, there is less in the way of ramble-able land, and I wonder if this is because the UK has more extensive traditions of common ownership and protected rights of way.

 

[BlueTrain]

Are you sure there really is a tradition of common ownership and protected rights of way? I had the understanding that the right of way was a fairly recent thing. There's none of that in the United States, as I understand the idea. There is a lot of so-called public lands, both federal, state and local parks and forests as well as other designated areas that go by different names in different places. Wildlife Management Areas is one such name, which are basically hunting preserves. At the national level at least, National Parks and National Forests are very different and have totally different philosophies of land use. But in all these cases, "public land" means that it isn't privately owned, although some probably see it as "their" land when they're there. You've probably seen drivers on the highway who act like it's their road, too.

Some long distance trails do cross privately owned land, by the way, although as far as I know, it isn't because some made-up right exists. There is also a lot of land here and there in some places that is privately owned, usually by corporations, that is in no way managed or controlled but that has changed over the years. One area I know of used to have free access and it was a great place for four-wheeling (back in my Land-Rover days of my youth). But since then, it has been fenced off and theoretically can no longer be used by anyone, most likely because of the existence of open mines.

Patterns of land ownership in this country have changed over the years in various ways in different parts of the country. There have always been large landowners, plantations in the East, ranches in the West, who were always jealous of their land and guarded it carefully. As usual, the rich make the rules.

 

[Corso]

common land rights are pretty old and date back the the 17th centry where you were allowed various rights like pasture, collection of firewood, etc. but these days parlimentary acts, local bylaws etc have erroded such rights, some are still practiced in places like the new forest though

http://www.newforest.hampshire.org.uk/today1.html

Countryside and Rights of Way Act 2000 allows the right to roam under certain condititons but its nowhere near the same and just a tool to created the illusion of freedom

 

[British Red]

common land rights are pretty old and date back the the 17th centry where you were allowed various rights like pasture, collection of firewood, etc. but these days parlimentary acts, local bylaws etc have erroded such rights, some are still practiced in places like the new forest though

Its important to remember here that "commoners rights" applied to a very small number of people - dictated by place of occupation - they never applied to everyone.

 

[Corso]

of course not eveyone every where but everyone within their immediate local at that time (this still applies in the new forest)

seeing as most had very little acess or want for distance travel in their eyes it would have been 'everywhere'

 

[mrcharly]

Are you sure there really is a tradition of common ownership and protected rights of way? I had the understanding that the right of way was a fairly recent thing. .

Rights of way are ancient and marked on maps - what is recent is the 'right to roam'. Right to Roam only applies in certain areas and means you don't have to stick to designated rights of way.

 

[santaman2000]

Are you sure there really is a tradition of common ownership and protected rights of way? I had the understanding that the right of way was a fairly recent thing. There's none of that in the United States, as I understand the idea......

There certainly is as I understand the idea. The beach is public (common) property up to the mean high water mark; there's still open range out west (less than 1/7 of the entire state of Nevada is privately owned and at least half is open range) All rivers and streams are public property unless the stream is so small as to be completely contained on a single private property. In fact by federal law, all streams more than 3 feet deep and 30 feet wide are part of the US highway system. As is the Intercoastal Waterway.

 

[cbr6fs]

Hard to say...Its all pretty up in the air as its highly unlikely he will get the specialised care he needs. He will just go back to his old ways.

An autistic person would know the difference between right and wrong, but might act on it in unconventional ways.

Say, they might know hitting someone was wrong, and so not do it, but to them, planting a bomb (or firing an ICBM) would not be wrong...

Was just reading about this guy, seems his family are declining interviews and comments, not surprising really.

But the last i read about this guy was in August when it was reported he was living a pretty normal life and working a normal job as part of his parole.


Personally i'm in 2 minds.

On one hand the guy broke into peoples homes hundreds if not thousands of times, having had a house broken into i know how this invasion feels.

On the other hand the guy does seem genuinely remorseful, he also took responsibility for his action by pleading guilty.

Either way it's a great story.

 

[British Red]

of course not eveyone every where but everyone within their immediate local at that time (this still applies in the new forest)

seeing as most had very little acess or want for distance travel in their eyes it would have been 'everywhere'

Not at all - if you take pannage or turberry these were valuable rights all the way back to the enclosure acts, the number of animals one could graze were regulated and had to be applied for. More recently (as in for hundreds of years) putting up a property conferred absolutely no rights at all.

As it happens, Section 11 of the Commons Registration Act 1965, the New Forest is excluded from the registration provisions of that Act.

 

[rg598]

Wow, this thread got deep really fast. It went from a discussion on autism, to the US penal system, to urban planning and development, to land rights, with a sprinkling of Pick Proeneke for good measure. From what I can see it's just a guy who lived in the local woods and stole from people's houses so he can keep living his chosen lifestyle. I couldn't care less what he plans on doing now that he can not steel for a living.

 

[cbr6fs]

Wow, this thread got deep really fast. It went from a discussion on autism, to the US penal system, to urban planning and development, to land rights, with a sprinkling of Pick Proeneke for good measure. From what I can see it's just a guy who lived in the local woods and stole from people's houses so he can keep living his chosen lifestyle. I couldn't care less what he plans on doing now that he can not steel for a living.

I can understand your view, for me personally though i do find his story very interesting.

First off he seemed to have very little survival knowledge or training and even less E&E experience or training, yet he managed to put enough logic and common sense together to survive and avoid detection for 26 years.

The officer in charge of the case returned to his base with him and noted that he was stepping from rocks to rocks rather than make footprints, he also avoided bending or breaking vegetation as he passed.
For someone without any tracking experience or knowledge that's a pretty impressive step to make.

He then bulked up in summer so he wouldn't have to make as many thieving trips in winter, to avoid making tracks in the snow.
Again i find that way if thinking interesting as in my experience there are not many military trained or even outdoors enthusiasts who think that strategically.


The off topic bickering is annoying though i agree.
Unfortunately when people put an emphasis on pedantically trying to show how they're always right, rather than concentrating on the topic of the thread and it's quality it ALWAYS drags the thread down into some weird pedantic bickering.
The real shame is that these folks seem more interested in telling others what they should think, do and buy rather than being open to new ideas, experiences and opinions, which surely is the main reason for being part of any forum?

I find these sort of post extremely caustic as they set a confrontational and pedantic tone for the rest of the posts.

 

[Corso]

forums run on opinions....

 

[BlueTrain]

Yes, forums run on opinions but not all opinions are welcome on some forums.

In any event, one could still be a real hermit where I'm from, although ideas of what a hermit is vary. All you have to do in live by yourself in a place where you won't have a lot of contact with other people. That doesn't mean you can't have some contact with people at all. After all, you'll probably want to come into the settlement on Sunday to go to church and probably on a weekday now and then to buy and sell and to keep up with the news. Even during the period of the first settlements along the Alleghenies in the American Colonies, that's what people did. In fact, that was still being done when I was little, even though conditions had changed a little. Being a hermit should not imply being engaged in trespassing or other criminal behavior, nor does it imply "living off the land" in any sense that does not include gardening or farming. One thing I'm not sure of if whether or not a family can be hermits. My feeling is that a family group cannot be hermits but everything else can apply.

For interesting stories about such a life lived in what you wouldn't think of as frontier country, I refer you to "My Neck of the Woods," by Louise Dickinson Rich. It is not a new book. Her earlier book was "We Took to the Woods." They include lots of stories about backwoods people. They lived in New England.

 

[Joonsy]

First off he seemed to have very little survival knowledge or training and even less E&E experience or training, yet he managed to put enough logic and common sense together to survive and avoid detection for 26 years.

The officer in charge of the case returned to his base with him and noted that he was stepping from rocks to rocks rather than make footprints, he also avoided bending or breaking vegetation as he passed.
For someone without any tracking experience or knowledge that's a pretty impressive step to make.

1, seems to me the authorities made less effort in catching him than he made himself in not being caught.
2, or the tracker was useless.

The only thing I drew from this is that it shows how useless and pathetic the authorities were at catching him, 26 years of robbing the same camp, over 40 robberies a year, using regular paths between his crimes and his camp, and all while dossing only an hours walk away. In the end he was catched not by the skills and efforts of the authorities but by his own stupidity.

Seems to me they put in the same amount of effort as the police who did NOT attend my home when I was burgled and disgracefully just gave me a crime number over the phone.

to quote -- ''he hiked about an hour to the Pine Tree summer camp, a few dozen cabins spread along the shoreline'' --- '' every step memorized''

 

[Corso]

Yes, forums run on opinions but not all opinions are welcome on some forums.

Which is why there are rules and moderators. As we are neither are we in a position to judge.

If what's written in a forum is so upsetting maybe its a good time to put the mouse down and step outside after all that's the basis of this forum anyway....

 

[BlueTrain]

Well, I certainly hope my opinions haven't been too far off base or out of line. Some places even my own experiences have been objected to, like living in a hollow in West Virginia. I didn't think it was all that great myself but who am I to say?

Concerning the individual who supposedly hid out for 26 years surviving by borrowing things from unoccupied cabins when no one was looking, it reminds me of something when someone mentioned guides. There was an incident that took place in Canada around 1929 over a trapper who shot a mounted policeman over a dispute over trapping irregularities. There were two movies made about the incident but both were far removed from the reality of the facts, not unusual for a movie, of course. Anyhow, a posse was formed and he was pursued. He was killed in a gunfight a couple of months later but not before he had killed one policeman and wounded another. They had an Indian guide on the posse but they left on New Year's Day (I think) and immediately got lost. The moral of the story is, don't hire a guide on New Year's Day.

 

[santaman2000]

1, seems to me the authorities made less effort in catching him than he made himself in not being caught.
2, or the tracker was useless.....

That was my opinion also. At least partly, as I don't know if they ever even tried tracking him. He was just a petty thief and I doubt if any serious attempt was made to track him down.

Not saying that attitude on the part of the authorities was the right one; just that it's the likely one.

 

[santaman2000]

Yes, forums run on opinions but not all opinions are welcome on some forums.

In any event, one could still be a real hermit where I'm from, although ideas of what a hermit is vary. All you have to do in live by yourself in a place where you won't have a lot of contact with other people. That doesn't mean you can't have some contact with people at all. After all, you'll probably want to come into the settlement on Sunday to go to church and probably on a weekday now and then to buy and sell and to keep up with the news. Even during the period of the first settlements along the Alleghenies in the American Colonies, that's what people did. In fact, that was still being done when I was little, even though conditions had changed a little. Being a hermit should not imply being engaged in trespassing or other criminal behavior, nor does it imply "living off the land" in any sense that does not include gardening or farming. One thing I'm not sure of if whether or not a family can be hermits. My feeling is that a family group cannot be hermits but everything else can apply.

For interesting stories about such a life lived in what you wouldn't think of as frontier country, I refer you to "My Neck of the Woods," by Louise Dickinson Rich. It is not a new book. Her earlier book was "We Took to the Woods." They include lots of stories about backwoods people. They lived in New England.

In this day and age it's possible to live as a hermit in the middle of an urban environment. Work from home (online) Shop from home as well (including groceries you cook, or take out delivery. There's no reason for human contact; at least not on a frequent basis.