Our own course

[Wayland]

Great idea, hope it goes well.

A bit too far for me to go regularly I'm afraid but we have the North meets up here fairly frequently and there is a lot of informal teaching done at those.

Good luck with it though.

 

[Wayne]

Nick I wish you every success. I didnt have a problem with your idea. I know some who will. One of your past instructors for instance. I give far too many courses away for free for mine own good ask my bank manager.

I am happy to come down and lend a hand even as I have offered to do previously, I respect your skills and desire to share the knowledge you have accquired.

Bushman I didnt really understand your arguement. You get paid for the services you provide. Instructors get paid to reduce a clients learning curve and impart knowledge and experience.

I still think Nick you need to consider insurance. Your group is an informal club and thus maybe open to litigation. I know we are all decent folk who would never dream of sueing but when people lose their income friendliness soon disappears.

 

[swyn]

Having been on the front line of a major accident and it's consequences I am really very jumpy towards this idea. Not that I disagree at all to the principal of this free learning. It is just the fact that s***t happens and if someone can't work following an accident what recourse do they have. And please do NOT tell me that we are responsible for our own actions It WILL NOT wear with the Health and Safety Executive whose rules will skin you.
If you are taken to hospital the first thing the patient is asked is where and when did this happen and unconcious people can't lie!
I am not trying to undermine any principals here just point out FACTS.
Tony, Wayne and anyone else who organises events/moots/gatherings will vouch for the behind scenes work necessary to enable folks to have an enjoyable, safe and positive experience.
Insurance does not come cheap and if the rules are mis-used these companies will not give anyone in this field opprtunities to do so again at a reasonable rate. Please bear this principal in mind.
Swyn.

 

[Bushman_Brett]

ok, so lets not call it organised, a few people are going to go out into the country for a walk, to camp and to share knowledge.

It will be done the same as if you go for a walk with ur wife or walking mates, i.e. u fall over its your own fault and you cant turn around and sue the council for leaving that slippy log there,,, If need be im sure everyone attending would be willing to sign a piece of paper as they arrive saying so.

My point is i give my knowledge freely, i only charge for my time and parts when i am doing a job, people can call and talk to me all they want without charge.

n i agree Those that are teaching bushcraft should get paid for there time they spend in doing that teaching, but the knowledge in its self should be free.

 

[Eric_Methven]

Also don't forget that after an accident that puts you off work, it may well not be you that insists on litigation but the insurance company when you make a claim under your loan, sickness or credit card protector policy. Also under present legistlation any piece of paper you sign absolving anyone of responsibility basically isn't worth the paper it's written on.

If someone steps in a rabbit hole while out for a walk and breaks their ankle, they can and probably will, sue the farmer or land owner - on the insistance of their insurance company if they expect a pay out for time off work. The insurance company want's their money back somehow. That's why ALL farmers and landowners have PLI, even if there is no public right of access on their land. Even trespassers can sue.

I know it's a pain in the a$$ going on about it, but we do live in a litegous society, and nice as you'd like people to be, you need PLI or you could well end up bankrupt - all for the sake of a weekend out in the countryside with mates.

Eric

 

[Bushman_Brett]

wow, they better close cannock chase then.

surely were not that bad here yet, i remember whenever i went bungee jumping or skydiving im made to sign a paper saying that anything happening to me is legally my own responsability and the organiser is not to be held responisble. Ill check on this matter, but seriously if people refrain from doing the simplest of things because of a stupid system then we would all be housebound and rapped up in blankets with plastic spoons instead of kitchen utensils for our own safety.

All seems a bit hmmmm, like i said ill check it out.

 

[Goose]

wow, they better close cannock chase then.

surely were not that bad here yet, i remember whenever i went bungee jumping or skydiving im made to sign a paper saying that anything happening to me is legally my own responsability and the organiser is not to be held responisble. Ill check on this matter, but seriously if people refrain from doing the simplest of things because of a stupid system then we would all be housebound and rapped up in blankets with plastic spoons instead of kitchen utensils for our own safety.

All seems a bit hmmmm, like i said ill check it out.

Your own responsibility on a bungee jump???!!!!
Out of all examples I thought that would be the one were if something went wrong it would be the fault of the organisers.
I regularly use an indoor climbing wall and I have to sign to say I am capable of using it safely. If I take a group of people, my kids or other family even, I sign to be resonsible for them. I would not hold the climbing wall responsible if I screwed up, but there is no doubt if their equipment failed, the wall or ropes etc, I would be suing them as that is their responsibility. I check the ropes and keep an eye out for dangers obviously but their has to be an assumption that the owners take their responsibilities seriously.
I suppose, but don't really think about it, if I dropped one of my mates off the wall I would be sued, as was said before if not by them maybe by their mortgage company.

 

[Bootstrap Bob]

Blimey! I can walk to this from my house, may have to put it in my diary
Well done Falling Rain.

Bushman_Brett, very interesed in your work, wouldn't mind a quick chat with you about it if possible (Off thread)?

 

[falling rain]

I think after all I'm not going to bother with this.
I thought it would be nice for anyone who was interested to get out and learn some skills. We talk a lot about it on here and the local meet-ups are fun, but I've been to a few where we just sit around the fire drinking tea and don't actually learn anything. Which is still good fun, don't get me wrong, but I along with many others I imagine, would like to learn more skills on meet-ups (not talking about the organised twice yearly Bushmoot) as well as sitting around shooting the s*it. I just thought I could give something and maybe a few others would like to do the same. There are so many people with so many skills here, that I'd love to learn as I'd imagine would others. Hand drill workshop for example is one I'd be interested in as I've had a little success with it but can't by any means do it consistantly. It seems the idea is upsetting a few people and everyone who's mentioned about the litigation and being sued etc are probably right. As with the bucksaw thread a few people have mentioned that it's something they've been thinking about for a while, and along similar lines I thought it would give people the kick up the bum they need to get out with a structured (informal)programme where you come at your own risk and no one is going to blame anyone or sue if they spill their tea down their lap, or cut yourself. We're all guilty of a little laziness from time to time, certainly I am. I've got loads of projects I keep meaning to start but never seem to get around to. ( I've made my Mk 1 Bucksaw yesterday by the way. Pictures to follow soon) I don't want to upset anyone (Schools or instructors) and I don't want anyone sueing me. Unfortunately it's the world we live in nowadays. An accident was an accident many years ago, now it's someones fault, but never your own stupidity or lack of concentration or common sense that led to the accident The rabbit hole chestnut example was given by Eric. How can that possibly be the farmers fault if you're careless enough to not look where you're going and twist your ankle putting your foot down a rabbit hole?.......But I know what you're saying Eric.......It'd be the farmers fault even if you wern't even supposed to be on his land......Plain ridiculous and crazy
It's turning into more trouble than I'd anticipated. I suppose I should have thought about it more carefully and anticipated the problems people have pointed out. And so far also no one has offered to do a definate session, but thanks to those who have offered to help out in other ways.
If we were at a get together down on Dartmoor (just an informal meet-up like we always do) and I asked Fred to show me how to carve a spoon and after he'd shown me I started my spoon and slipped and sliced my palm open badly could I sue Fred if I wanted too?. I was planning the "course" along the lines of those informal meet-ups and If as some are saying about sueing maybe we should be careful about what knowledge we impart amongst ourselves. If someone posted a picture on here of a funghi asking what it was (as often happens) and someone quite innocently gives his/her advice that it's a cep, and then the person asking, goes out pick's it and fries it up and eat's it and it turns out that it's a fly agaric (not a very good example but you get the idea) and they become extremely ill, hospitalised and off work and they decide to sue. Is it Tony who gets sued because it's website or the person who gave their opinion, quite innocently and having stressed that it was their opinion and by no means difinitive or expert. As someone mentioned an Indemnity paper signed by a person isn't worth the paper it's written on, so is a claim that the person giving the advice on the funghi (asked about on here)cannot be held responsible for any mistakes enough? Or can the funghi eater still sue the person who gave the advice if they so chose. I'd hope that everyone on here would realise that any advice taken was at their own risk, and that we're all friends and nobody is going to sue anybody..... But who knows. Could I have been sued if something had gone wrong on the fishing trip, bowdrill worksop and plant ID'ing sessions I've organised for people on here.
Thanks for the offers of help from those who did, and sorry to those who expressed an interest. You'll just have to get your hands in your pockets and pay for a course. I don't know a lot, but would have been happy to share what I do know. The courses are far more thorough and the instructors far more knowledgable , but an amalgamation of skills from some of the folks on here would I really believe, be better than ANY course you could ever go on. There are just so many skillful people here, each with a special talent. Leather workers, bow makers, blacksmiths (knives and firesteels for example) tanners, hedge layers, trappers, log cabin makers, cooks, canoeists, fishermen, plant experts, stalkers, trackers.etc etc. You don't get that lot on any course. Willingness to give,(from the people with the skills) and time (that's why 12 months to start off with as I originally posted. We couldn't do all in one weekend)and enthusiasm from learners. You show me how to make a pair of leather moccasins and I'll show you how to cook a bannock for example. If you can't do either and have nothing (no skills) to offer in return. No problem you're welcome along anyway.
Anyway......never mind. It was just an idea to have some skill sharing for our BCUK folks. Maybe when there's a law passed banning sueing, and people (adults) are responsible for themselves and do things at their own risk with a self informed decision to take part in something or not take part in something. We could bring up the idea again.

 

[Phil562]

Nick, just seen this thread

Well done mate, I meet with a group of guys every couple of months and we share our knowledge and why not.

All power to you mate, I'm only sorry I cannot step up to the plate and help out, SWMBO reckons I spend too much time away as it is

Once again, well done mate, you are a gent :You_Rock_

 

[Wayne]

Nick it is a sad world we live in where groups cannot gather and share skills. There is a couple of threads on Song of the Paddle at present about orgainsing meets and who would be responsible for an accident.

I would like to think that you would not have been sued if something happened on the fishing trip but who knows what the result of some no win no fee law suit would be.

I had a cold injury and benightment on a climbing course once. The number of peope who said I should sue was amazing. I did not by the way.

I think potentially there is a risk in all activities whether they be bushcraft related or organising a trip.

Your also right that as a group we tend to be lazy and apathetic. I go to meets to meet people and for the social interaction. Its nice to see old friends and witness other peoples approach. However if I want to learn a new skill I seek the best person I can find in the field to teach me. Sometimes it costs sometimes not.

 

[weekend_warrior]

I think after all I'm not going to bother with this.
I thought it would be nice for anyone who was interested to get out and learn some skills. We talk a lot about it on here and the local meet-ups are fun, but I've been to a few where we just sit around the fire drinking tea and don't actually learn anything. Which is still good fun, don't get me wrong, but I along with many others I imagine, would like to learn more skills on meet-ups (not talking about the organised twice yearly Bushmoot) as well as sitting around shooting the s*it. I just thought I could give something and maybe a few others would like to do the same. There are so many people with so many skills here, that I'd love to learn as I'd imagine would others. Hand drill workshop for example is one I'd be interested in as I've had a little success with it but can't by any means do it consistantly. It seems the idea is upsetting a few people and everyone who's mentioned about the litigation and being sued etc are probably right. As with the bucksaw thread a few people have mentioned that it's something they've been thinking about for a while, and along similar lines I thought it would give people the kick up the bum they need to get out with a structured (informal)programme where you come at your own risk and no one is going to blame anyone or sue if they spill their tea down their lap, or cut yourself. We're all guilty of a little laziness from time to time, certainly I am. I've got loads of projects I keep meaning to start but never seem to get around to. ( I've made my Mk 1 Bucksaw yesterday by the way. Pictures to follow soon) I don't want to upset anyone (Schools or instructors) and I don't want anyone sueing me. Unfortunately it's the world we live in nowadays. An accident was an accident many years ago, now it's someones fault, but never your own stupidity or lack of concentration or common sense that led to the accident The rabbit hole chestnut example was given by Eric. How can that possibly be the farmers fault if you're careless enough to not look where you're going and twist your ankle putting your foot down a rabbit hole?.......But I know what you're saying Eric.......It'd be the farmers fault even if you wern't even supposed to be on his land......Plain ridiculous and crazy
It's turning into more trouble than I'd anticipated. I suppose I should have thought about it more carefully and anticipated the problems people have pointed out. And so far also no one has offered to do a definate session, but thanks to those who have offered to help out in other ways.
If we were at a get together down on Dartmoor (just an informal meet-up like we always do) and I asked Fred to show me how to carve a spoon and after he'd shown me I started my spoon and slipped and sliced my palm open badly could I sue Fred if I wanted too?. I was planning the "course" along the lines of those informal meet-ups and If as some are saying about sueing maybe we should be careful about what knowledge we impart amongst ourselves. If someone posted a picture on here of a funghi asking what it was (as often happens) and someone quite innocently gives his/her advice that it's a cep, and then the person asking, goes out pick's it and fries it up and eat's it and it turns out that it's a fly agaric (not a very good example but you get the idea) and they become extremely ill, hospitalised and off work and they decide to sue. Is it Tony who gets sued because it's website or the person who gave their opinion, quite innocently and having stressed that it was their opinion and by no means difinitive or expert. As someone mentioned an Indemnity paper signed by a person isn't worth the paper it's written on, so is a claim that the person giving the advice on the funghi (asked about on here)cannot be held responsible for any mistakes enough? Or can the funghi eater still sue the person who gave the advice if they so chose. I'd hope that everyone on here would realise that any advice taken was at their own risk, and that we're all friends and nobody is going to sue anybody..... But who knows. Could I have been sued if something had gone wrong on the fishing trip, bowdrill worksop and plant ID'ing sessions I've organised for people on here.
Thanks for the offers of help from those who did, and sorry to those who expressed an interest. You'll just have to get your hands in your pockets and pay for a course. I don't know a lot, but would have been happy to share what I do know. The courses are far more thorough and the instructors far more knowledgable , but an amalgamation of skills from some of the folks on here would I really believe, be better than ANY course you could ever go on. There are just so many skillful people here, each with a special talent. Leather workers, bow makers, blacksmiths (knives and firesteels for example) tanners, hedge layers, trappers, log cabin makers, cooks, canoeists, fishermen, plant experts, stalkers, trackers.etc etc. You don't get that lot on any course. Willingness to give,(from the people with the skills) and time (that's why 12 months to start off with as I originally posted. We couldn't do all in one weekend)and enthusiasm from learners. You show me how to make a pair of leather moccasins and I'll show you how to cook a bannock for example. If you can't do either and have nothing (no skills) to offer in return. No problem you're welcome along anyway.
Anyway......never mind. It was just an idea to have some skill sharing for our BCUK folks. Maybe when there's a law passed banning sueing, and people (adults) are responsible for themselves and do things at their own risk with a self informed decision to take part in something or not take part in something. We could bring up the idea again.

I'm totally with you mate - on the stupidity of this litigous world we live in and your excellent idea of regular meet-ups. I'm wondering just how much the insurance would be.... Could someone with experience please PM a link or two?

 

[falcon]

This really does seem to be a legal minefield and it's a great shame that Falling Rain's enthusiasm to get together with like minded people to support each others' learning could have so many potential pitfalls.....though indeed Eric hit the nail on the head quite early on. The whole thing makes me wonder how groups such as Rambling Clubs stand in relation to accidents which might occur during the course of one of their organised walks...?......or when half a dozen mates decide to climb, say, Scafell Pike..? There must be an element of "at your own risk" there..?

Clearly, when the element of "tuition" is introduced, the liability factor takes on another dimension so maybe that's the main pitfall? Perhaps you could just look to organise local get-togethers with like minded people to compare skill and knowledge levels and see how it goes.....and be ever mindful of steering clear of the liability pitfalls...? Maybe these thoughts are niaive...but it's a great shame to see someone's enthusiasm frustrated...

 

[Wayne]

Getting insurance for this kind of event will be intersting. Where is the location? Are the instructors suitably qualified. Where are the lesson plans, Risk assessments. What are the ratios of instructors to cliens. What activities do you are planned? These questions are just some that your insurance broker will ask.

If you decided a club structure was the way to go you would still need all the paper work in place and a club constitution etc.

Its all very frustrating.

 

[weekend_warrior]

Getting insurance for this kind of event will be intersting. Where is the location? Are the instructors suitably qualified. Where are the lesson plans, Risk assessments. What are the ratios of instructors to cliens. What activities do you are planned? These questions are just some that your insurance broker will ask.

If you decided a club structure was the way to go you would still need all the paper work in place and a club constitution etc.

Its all very frustrating.

Yeah, I agree - I'm thinking more along the lines of group discount purchased "travel" insurance with added activity clauses and the signing of a mutual release of liability/waiver doc - that would be quite simple to arrange I think. Basically so everyone has personal and personal liability cover and we also ensure that we won't sue one another.

 

[JonnyP]

Could not a disclaimer just be signed by anyone partaking....? Or are there pitfalls there too....?

 

[falling rain]

Could not a disclaimer just be signed by anyone partaking....? Or are there pitfalls there too....?

Already been mentioned Jon, but apparently not worth the paper they're written on.

 

[falcon]

Getting insurance for this kind of event will be intersting. Where is the location? Are the instructors suitably qualified. Where are the lesson plans, Risk assessments. What are the ratios of instructors to cliens. What activities do you are planned? These questions are just some that your insurance broker will ask.

If you decided a club structure was the way to go you would still need all the paper work in place and a club constitution etc.

Its all very frustrating.

Spot on Wayne........hence my thought in my prevoius post looking at informal get togethers. People invariably learn on these occasions and provided camping was purchased on an approved site, the relevant PL cover would be in place for that side of it via the site owner......

 

[peds8045]

I am no expert in such legal matters but isn't the insurance requirements for professional training schools required because they are being paid for their services? If we took this to the nth degree you could argue that every meet that takes place having been organised through this or other forums requires that everyone attending needs PLI? This does not happen

From my perception of what is being suggested it seems that regular meets (that already take place), have a bit of structure (often takes place) and is attended by volunteers when they are available and can afford the travel costs (this also currently takes place).

I have taken part in such events organised on another forum and they work very well albeit the structure is decided once everyone has arrived and is agreed by mutual agreement.

The one thing that this idea would do is move people away from the turn up, stand round the fire, talk a lot, get intoxicated then go to bed syndrome.

I for one applaud Falling Rain for putting some thought into this.

 

[falling rain]

I am no expert in such legal matters but isn't the insurance requirements for professional training schools required because they are being paid for their services? If we took this to the nth degree you could argue that every meet that takes place having been organised through this or other forums requires that everyone attending needs PLI? This does not happen

From my perception of what is being suggested it seems that regular meets (that already take place), have a bit of structure (often takes place) and is attended by volunteers when they are available and can afford the travel costs (this also currently takes place).

I have taken part in such events organised on another forum and they work very well albeit the structure is decided once everyone has arrived and is agreed by mutual agreement.

The one thing that this idea would do is move people away from the turn up, stand round the fire, talk a lot, get intoxicated then go to bed syndrome.

I for one applaud Falling Rain for putting some thought into this.

Thanks Peds, That's pretty much what I was trying to say about the meet-ups and insurance......just you put it a lot better than I did. I know what I was trying to say No money changing hands, and doing something constructive, and learning instead of just standing round the fire.