Just about everything eats the eggs of songbirds, given half a chance. I believe the prevailing scientific view is that the decline in songbird populations is mainly down to changing agricultural and gardening practices, but it's not a subject I've really looked into much.
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Spamel
Are you going to Swyn's in January?
If you are, bring some squirrels and I'll bring the mincer
I read something in the times about this. Apparently the songbird population fell on every site they monitored apart from one, where the gamekeeper did his rounds with a shotgun..
robin wood
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Well I like to be controversial so since the poll is running at 92% yes I'll say no.
The forrestry commision has done a huge amount of research on the effects of culling, Its a few years since I worked in woodland management but the reults as I remember them were clear....culling had very very little effect in the medium to long term on population. That is to say if you go out to your wood today and kill 90% or the greys in 6 months time your wood will have the same number as if you had not been there. Of course if you want to go out twice a week every week you will keep the population down...untill the day you stop then they will breed....like rats. he population rapidly expands to what the land will hold then levels out.
Now I don't like the beasts, as far as I am concerned its a rat with a flufy tail. It may be non native but it is completely naturalised and it is not going away...are we also going to get rid of rabbits cos they came with the Normans or little egrets cos they have only started nesting here cos of global warming?
No I am afraid for better or worse we have sycamore, grey squirrel, mink, canada geese, and the rest. In my opinion and that of the forestry comision eradication or even keeping the population low is a waste of valuable time and rescources (unless you are doing purely for entertainment) The forestry answer is to hit them hard once a year in april, this is when the population is lowest, just as they are thinking of breeding and critically just before they start striping bark and eating eggs. It takes the population a couple of months to recover by which time it doesn't matter so much.
Now theres one on my nut feeder now where's the gun
The forrestry commision has done a huge amount of research on the effects of culling, Its a few years since I worked in woodland management but the reults as I remember them were clear....culling had very very little effect in the medium to long term on population. That is to say if you go out to your wood today and kill 90% or the greys in 6 months time your wood will have the same number as if you had not been there. Of course if you want to go out twice a week every week you will keep the population down...untill the day you stop then they will breed....like rats. he population rapidly expands to what the land will hold then levels out.
Now I don't like the beasts, as far as I am concerned its a rat with a flufy tail. It may be non native but it is completely naturalised and it is not going away...are we also going to get rid of rabbits cos they came with the Normans or little egrets cos they have only started nesting here cos of global warming?
No I am afraid for better or worse we have sycamore, grey squirrel, mink, canada geese, and the rest. In my opinion and that of the forestry comision eradication or even keeping the population low is a waste of valuable time and rescources (unless you are doing purely for entertainment) The forestry answer is to hit them hard once a year in april, this is when the population is lowest, just as they are thinking of breeding and critically just before they start striping bark and eating eggs. It takes the population a couple of months to recover by which time it doesn't matter so much.
Now theres one on my nut feeder now where's the gun
Make the little beggars a food delicacy that sells at a high price and pretty soon they will be rae enough. Come on Jamie and co. you have the answers to the problem, on a plate as it were...
I think there should be a bounty on their tails as a incentive to kill more of them then we would all benifit apart from the greys that is I think they have had enough benefits since they have been here, but no I don't agree with a cull as it would be done by a government sponsored body presumably by chemicals
There used to be a bounty on things like sparrows heads. Didn't make too much difference as far as I can see.
I voted yes to culling grey squirells.
however since thinking a little more about the subject i have come to the conclusion that i dont agree with culling any animal. I accept that they cause major problems and that they do more good than help. But what about Humans? Surely we have a greater impact on deforestation and extinction than grey squirells. Im not trying to say that All creatures are equal because i know thats not the case. However if we were the inferior species wouldnt you hope that people would show a little compassion? After all its not their fault they are good survivors.
Anyways if you must kill them, atleast treat them with respect as the worthy Adversery that they are. And definately put them to good use. Id love a squirell steak. b
however since thinking a little more about the subject i have come to the conclusion that i dont agree with culling any animal. I accept that they cause major problems and that they do more good than help. But what about Humans? Surely we have a greater impact on deforestation and extinction than grey squirells. Im not trying to say that All creatures are equal because i know thats not the case. However if we were the inferior species wouldnt you hope that people would show a little compassion? After all its not their fault they are good survivors.
Anyways if you must kill them, atleast treat them with respect as the worthy Adversery that they are. And definately put them to good use. Id love a squirell steak. b
IMHO there is absolutely no point in doing a cull if you don't do it absolutely and completely in say 5 mile deep bands around the reds current territories. What would be the point of doing a grey cull in say Manchester, when the nearest red population is in the Lakes? Then youd need to get the reds to repopulate the vacated areas. Then and only then would you see a benefit to the cull.
Sadly the reds succumb to a disease that the greys carry, and that along with the greys ability to eat unripe nuts means that the reds basically dont stand a chance.
Chris
Sadly the reds succumb to a disease that the greys carry, and that along with the greys ability to eat unripe nuts means that the reds basically dont stand a chance.
Chris
Davy Stephenson
Member
What Chris says is fact,
A cull will only prevent things happening for a while longer, grey's were a mistake to which many of our unprotected red's will eventually secumb too, rather like that of the native jungle inhabitants who got chickepox and measles from us when we first met them, wheather or not the red's buld up a resistence to the Pox, like humans eventually did is anyones guess.
Also feeding red'es has a knock on effect because they loose their fear of humans as do the grey's, they loose their ability and naturalness to forage for their own natural food, making them sort of imprinted relying on hand outs instead of working for themselves, hard winters are helped by feeding, because if the free food ever stopped they would suffer even more.
We have to face it that the grey's are here to stay unless a modern equivalent to the mixy is invented for the grey's, even this will fail eventually as it does for rabbit's, they now can overcome the virus, anyway I hate these kinds of things, because we are only introducing yet another virus that we don't need, which could mutate in many years to come into who knows what, the scientist don't really know what will happen with those viruses in years to come.
Davy.
A cull will only prevent things happening for a while longer, grey's were a mistake to which many of our unprotected red's will eventually secumb too, rather like that of the native jungle inhabitants who got chickepox and measles from us when we first met them, wheather or not the red's buld up a resistence to the Pox, like humans eventually did is anyones guess.
Also feeding red'es has a knock on effect because they loose their fear of humans as do the grey's, they loose their ability and naturalness to forage for their own natural food, making them sort of imprinted relying on hand outs instead of working for themselves, hard winters are helped by feeding, because if the free food ever stopped they would suffer even more.
We have to face it that the grey's are here to stay unless a modern equivalent to the mixy is invented for the grey's, even this will fail eventually as it does for rabbit's, they now can overcome the virus, anyway I hate these kinds of things, because we are only introducing yet another virus that we don't need, which could mutate in many years to come into who knows what, the scientist don't really know what will happen with those viruses in years to come.
Davy.
Davy Stephenson
Member
Sparrows and many other town and country species are now in rapid decline in many areas, a friend of mine has done extensive research into this, to cut a long story short, what he and a few and a couple close reasearchers have come to an agreement on is,
not only has a sparrows habitat changed that prevents them from finding suitable place to live, IE, modern buildings are hermatically sealed against entry points in which they can make a nest, it seems that there is a link to certain kinds of pollution including unleaded petrol, which is used predominantly in towns, which was developed to prevent carbon monoxide poisening is enclosed areas, or that was their main advertising point quite a few years back.
This is what these people think that is killing off the prime early food sources, you see in the early days of a young sparrows life, it is fed on small insects and or aphids, these paticular insects seem to be in decline and not enough food can be found to keep them going through this stage in their development, its like a weaning process, before they go onto the larger more whole foods.
If it is global warming that is doing it, then the signs are there already, which could effect larger and other things like insects and crops which work together for germination, once this chain reaction starts it will be very hard to stop quickly, its sometimes easy to polute an aea,but takes many decades to clean or clear up afterwards.
I myself have noticed these changes, I will tru to explain explain, when I was much younger I wrode a motorbike, and every time I went out for a ride, my visor would be totally covered with insects even on a short journies, today we still live in the same area but my car windcreen doesn't have anywhere near the same amount of dead insects on it as it used to have, even in an insect population boom which sometimes occurs, has anyone else noticed this throughout the years and or seasons.
One thing that is ironic though is, since the advent of unleaded petrol and the cataliyctic converter, the gas which was once produced by petrol driven vehicles has changed from monoxide to dioxide or C02, which is what a CAT produces once that its up to working temprature, which is now the main gas concernd with global warming.
Treat the cause, not the problem
Davy.
Davy Stephenson
Member
Here are a few ways to catch/get them to come out of the drey.
Take a large 4lb hammer and bang like hell on the trunk of the tree.
A fen trap inserted into a false bird box covered with nuts or corn, works every time.
Wait until the young are a couple of weeks old and still in the drey, then blast the nest out of the tree, you may have to repeate this because they will have another litter.
Use squirel proof feeders, place them a good way from a platform, because the buggers can jump like hell.
Davy.
Take a large 4lb hammer and bang like hell on the trunk of the tree.
A fen trap inserted into a false bird box covered with nuts or corn, works every time.
Wait until the young are a couple of weeks old and still in the drey, then blast the nest out of the tree, you may have to repeate this because they will have another litter.
Use squirel proof feeders, place them a good way from a platform, because the buggers can jump like hell.
Davy.
Theres a very interesting story kicking about somehwere that seems to suggest that pine martens are very good for the red squirrel balance of power. Apparently where there are good numbers of martens the greys do very badly and the reds do well. Some speculation seemed to suggest that this is because greys spend more time on the ground and are easier prey for the martens.
So "Go Martens" (bit of a Red Dawn moment there) - I like the idea of the little natural ferret faces killing the invaders
Red
So "Go Martens" (bit of a Red Dawn moment there) - I like the idea of the little natural ferret faces killing the invaders
Red
Davy Stephenson
Member
Do not feed the greys or any squirel come to that, there is enough natural food for all, numbers are controlled by nature and what an area will allow, feeding only attracts any kind of squirel and will only bring them together, and you know what that means.
Lets hope they do find a vaccine, but that will not control the spread of the grey into the reds area, they grey is stronger and will compete with the red for what food is available.
Anyone who has voted no for the grey cull and feeds the greys are adding to the demise of our native, because they will spread out from their strongholds into neighbouring areas and beyond, someone mentione that thr greys in Manchester were far from the reds in the lake district and a cull would be of not use, if you believe this to be true then how do you think that the greys have spread..
Davy.
Lets hope they do find a vaccine, but that will not control the spread of the grey into the reds area, they grey is stronger and will compete with the red for what food is available.
Anyone who has voted no for the grey cull and feeds the greys are adding to the demise of our native, because they will spread out from their strongholds into neighbouring areas and beyond, someone mentione that thr greys in Manchester were far from the reds in the lake district and a cull would be of not use, if you believe this to be true then how do you think that the greys have spread..
Davy.
Davy Stephenson
Member
The grey issue, no pun intended needs addressing today, lets not hope for a cure in less than 10 years time, it is too late now, unless the government take positive action to deal with the problem now its going to be too late, it does no good whatsoever of having further debates, field test, surveys etc, while the reds secumb, all that is wasting valuble time and money which could be spent on controlling the grey population while the scientists look for their vaccine.
We have still got a free run on air rifles without a licence, pellets cost next to nothing, we know that land owners don't like strangers running a mock on their land, but we need their help in such a cases by letting responsible individuals take care of things, which they would get for free.
There are many ways in which a controlling action could be carried out, bring back your local air rifle clubs of which they used to be thousand of, get them organised to have culling parties.
If we all pull together and work as a team we can help the reds today, anyone else got any other ideas.
Davy.
We have still got a free run on air rifles without a licence, pellets cost next to nothing, we know that land owners don't like strangers running a mock on their land, but we need their help in such a cases by letting responsible individuals take care of things, which they would get for free.
There are many ways in which a controlling action could be carried out, bring back your local air rifle clubs of which they used to be thousand of, get them organised to have culling parties.
If we all pull together and work as a team we can help the reds today, anyone else got any other ideas.
Davy.
Davy Stephenson
Member
Theres a very interesting story kicking about somehwere that seems to suggest that pine martens are very good for the red squirrel balance of power. Apparently where there are good numbers of martens the greys do very badly and the reds do well. Some speculation seemed to suggest that this is because greys spend more time on the ground and are easier prey for the martens.
So "Go Martens" (bit of a Red Dawn moment there) - I like the idea of the little natural ferret faces killing the invaders
Red
Martins are a carnivores they will eat anything that is weaker than themselves, greys are stronger and faster than the reds whose young will also suffer as will all small animals with young, this is not the answer, if we do nothing the onlyplace one will see a red is either stuffed or in a zoo, any less numbers of greys, will give the reds the time they need.
Davy,
The carnovorous nature of the pine martens is what is helping the reds in some areas -since their haits make them harder to catch so the martens tend to kill of the grey's apparently leading to the Red's doing much better. Feel free to read more
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/12/30/eapinemartin130.xml
Red
The carnovorous nature of the pine martens is what is helping the reds in some areas -since their haits make them harder to catch so the martens tend to kill of the grey's apparently leading to the Red's doing much better. Feel free to read more
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2007/12/30/eapinemartin130.xml
Red
Davy Stephenson
Member
Chris
We are all only being told half of the story here,
A spokesman from the enviormental agency has all but admitted and said this is an intresting theory at best, and it needs further looking into, this is where my main concern lies, while this and many other suveys are pending the greys march ever onwards and the reds are dieing off in ever larger numbers, its time to act with what we know already.
By doing this they areas where the greys are the thickest will create a buffer zone in which to repopulate instead of spreading out into new areas.
If this was to be done, the public then must not feed the greys that are left behind, this is where they get a bunk up especially in winter time when food is in demand, even feeding birds can alter this food ratio because the greys will take advantage of this too, I know I'm going to get an ear bashing for saying that, but there will be still enough birds to see next year, its natures way of controlling numbers.
Back to the Pine Martin issue, this has only been seen to work in very limited numbers in a few isolated areas of the country, where they are fewer grey than reds, this is because of the type of habitat, if there were more types of these of habitats then things would be different.
Its kind of like the mobile network, most companies tell you that they have full coverage over Britain, but they don't tell you exactly where, this is the same for the Martin, if you ask Defra for a map of the areas in question, they cannot give you an answer, its going to take a public vote to get enough support to help the cause, this is why we should vote yes
to save our native red.
The alien with the virus does not belong here, we are the vaccination.
Davy.
We are all only being told half of the story here,
A spokesman from the enviormental agency has all but admitted and said this is an intresting theory at best, and it needs further looking into, this is where my main concern lies, while this and many other suveys are pending the greys march ever onwards and the reds are dieing off in ever larger numbers, its time to act with what we know already.
By doing this they areas where the greys are the thickest will create a buffer zone in which to repopulate instead of spreading out into new areas.
If this was to be done, the public then must not feed the greys that are left behind, this is where they get a bunk up especially in winter time when food is in demand, even feeding birds can alter this food ratio because the greys will take advantage of this too, I know I'm going to get an ear bashing for saying that, but there will be still enough birds to see next year, its natures way of controlling numbers.
Back to the Pine Martin issue, this has only been seen to work in very limited numbers in a few isolated areas of the country, where they are fewer grey than reds, this is because of the type of habitat, if there were more types of these of habitats then things would be different.
Its kind of like the mobile network, most companies tell you that they have full coverage over Britain, but they don't tell you exactly where, this is the same for the Martin, if you ask Defra for a map of the areas in question, they cannot give you an answer, its going to take a public vote to get enough support to help the cause, this is why we should vote yes
to save our native red.
The alien with the virus does not belong here, we are the vaccination.
Davy.
N
Neolithic
Guest
Like has been said above, playing devil's advocate, many species aren't native to Britain that we actively cultivate - cows, sheep, goats...the list goes on, and I really consider grey squirrels to be the last of our worries when trying to preserve the 'natural' countryside.
Throughout history, man has made mistake after mistake, destroying natural ecosystems, 'helping' them along, and the like, all leading to distaster. In my mind, what's done is done, and to reiterate many, a cull will not rectify the problem - trying to do this without proper studies, and well thought out methods might be creating a problem somewhere else. Man seems to have a primal need to meddle, most often without thinking of the consequences first.
My personal opinion is that a cull wouldn't work, so all of this slap hazard shooting is making no difference, and just causing suffering to a lot of animals without them even being eaten in many cases.
A question: do people always remove the bodies or leave them where they fall? One ill-considered consequence might be illness to other animals due to higher than natural levels of dead matter being strewn across the country.
I certainly don't want to see the red squirrels succumb to the greys, and am paticularly against the latter as they are far from native, yet surely there are means and methods to keep populations down in a systematic manner, preserving areas of red inhabitation.
On a lighter note - have people been to Forby red squirrel reserve? They're actively thriving - could that be the way to go?
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