Bow Fishing ? ? ? ? Can I? ? ?
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I didn't post a link to the deer that were shot in the necropolis in Glasgow…..with crossbow bolts 
or to the dozens of other beasts injured by arrows. I simply suggested you had a look for those.
Archery is not always good hunting technique. Yes, some manage it effectively, the majority do not. They think that having all the gear means that they'll somehow be gifted with skill. Skill takes time to learn, it takes practice, it takes muscle memory that is all too rare now. Even in the past when it was pretty much the only method it wasn't always successful. We have ample archaeological evidence for wounded animals that escaped and started to heal before they succumbed to injury…Star Carr for instance….the deer had shattered arrowheads inside and the bone had started to heal around the injuries.
In the UK we already greatly restrict the calibre that is permitted on firearms used to hunt deer….how the hang do you think they'll ever get it passed to allow a bow and arrow ?
A good shot is impressive to see, a good clean killing shot is a damned sight harder.
I work with a wide range of countryside services and animal crimes folks turn up to the open days and such like. They have horror stories about the wildlife crimes as it is.
The link to the otter cub was a additional bit to the thread re the otters returning.
Cute wee thing, but it's going to have some teeth on her when she grows up !
M
or to the dozens of other beasts injured by arrows. I simply suggested you had a look for those.Archery is not always good hunting technique. Yes, some manage it effectively, the majority do not. They think that having all the gear means that they'll somehow be gifted with skill. Skill takes time to learn, it takes practice, it takes muscle memory that is all too rare now. Even in the past when it was pretty much the only method it wasn't always successful. We have ample archaeological evidence for wounded animals that escaped and started to heal before they succumbed to injury…Star Carr for instance….the deer had shattered arrowheads inside and the bone had started to heal around the injuries.
In the UK we already greatly restrict the calibre that is permitted on firearms used to hunt deer….how the hang do you think they'll ever get it passed to allow a bow and arrow ?
A good shot is impressive to see, a good clean killing shot is a damned sight harder.
I work with a wide range of countryside services and animal crimes folks turn up to the open days and such like. They have horror stories about the wildlife crimes as it is.
The link to the otter cub was a additional bit to the thread re the otters returning.
Cute wee thing, but it's going to have some teeth on her when she grows up !
M
Who said bowhunting is restricted to deer? It's legal (here) and effective on small game and waterfowl as well.
Proper modern hunting bows (compound bows) have sights and releases that make them almost as easy to master as a rifle.
Proper modern hunting bows (compound bows) have sights and releases that make them almost as easy to master as a rifle.
The legal minimum in most states is 40 or 45 pounds. I don't know of anybody at all who uses less TBH.
Nail and head there, santaman
If bow hunting were to be reintroduced, legislation on weights of bows, arrows used, etc would also be necessary.
People who were only interested in target shooting would find themselves under scrutiny. If we had a daft incident where someone got hurt, then use of bows for anything would get restricted . . .
I'm sure none of us want to go down that path.
I had a look and could only find imbalanced reports about drunks, Junkies, Neds hunting with air rifles and Lurchers and prostitutes. nothing came back on a deer with bolt injuries. Not saying it didn't happen but we cant let the few spoil a perfectly good opportunity to start a new Industry worth potentially tens of millions of pounds annually to the Scottish economy. More Deer are injured by vehicles every day than have been injured by "neds" over the last decade. Should we ban Driving.?I didn't post a link to the deer that were shot in the necropolis in Glasgow…..with crossbow bolts
My point is, If Managed like the US and Canada we can reintroduce Bow hunting where the Deer are killed ethically. ok, Maybe not to Animal right standards, but having worked in a slaughter house i know nothing is a given when killing animals for food.
I would rather have good clean drug free meat on my dinner table than the antibiotic filled growth hormoned garbage they pass off as food in our supermarkets for consumption.
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Yeah, we know all these thing, Hence the reason it would be a Industry, Training, Permits, Licences, the proper gear for the job at hand. as for Muscle memory, it doesn't take much to build up the particular muscle groups needed to pull back 50lbs. With today's technology even a "Woman"
can peel back a 50lbs bow like it was butter. Hunting Big game with a bow is not about loosing off arrows at 100 yards,..30 yards is about right, 40 at a push, a good Archer can get a 6 inch grouping on a target at 100 yards but a hunter needs to get closer, a lot closer as Deer will move at the sound of the shot.
There are a few ways you can get close to your prey. either stalk, which is an art in itself, or from a Hide or tree stand. As for using a Neolithic injury on deer as a reason for the argument against big game bow hunting, well lets just say, Technology has moved on...
Modern day bows with the correct Broadhead can and will bring down the biggest of prey with ease. ok the Animal has to bleed out but most of the time the animal will do this on the run, It doesn't have a clue what just happened until things go a bit dizzy then it's game over. anywhere between 50 and a couple of hundred yards and the beast is done.
It's about Shot Placement. A shot in the sweet spot will blow through flesh, bone, Liver, lungs and Heart and the arrow will keep going. 45 lbs with the proper weighted arrow has enough kinetic energy to do this never mind 70/80lb bows. this is where the Training comes in. More ££ for the economy.
Target Archery is Not Hunting. two different sports altogether.
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You're not taking on board the calibre issue, or the present sporting issues, or the ones about weapons/arms/licences.
I agree there are far too many deer on the hill….why do the sporting folks not take out more ? Good bows, suitable bows are as expensive as guns, and they take a lot more practice.
It all comes down to money.
Allowing archery is not a way for ordinary folks to walk up the hill and bag dinner.
The deer belong to the landowner. Permission must be given, and the meat cannot be sold on unless it's been inspected first. Game dealers, land owners, gamekeepers, estate workers…..they all have a right to be involved before the random, "Let's go hunt dinner", brigade invade like some reverse '45.
Can of worms really.
Anyway….so the answer to the OP is that it's site dependant. Not in lochs/lakes/ponds and rivers or burns/streams, but that some esturine areas and sea fishing is okay ?
M
I agree there are far too many deer on the hill….why do the sporting folks not take out more ? Good bows, suitable bows are as expensive as guns, and they take a lot more practice.
It all comes down to money.
Allowing archery is not a way for ordinary folks to walk up the hill and bag dinner.
The deer belong to the landowner. Permission must be given, and the meat cannot be sold on unless it's been inspected first. Game dealers, land owners, gamekeepers, estate workers…..they all have a right to be involved before the random, "Let's go hunt dinner", brigade invade like some reverse '45.
Can of worms really.
Anyway….so the answer to the OP is that it's site dependant. Not in lochs/lakes/ponds and rivers or burns/streams, but that some esturine areas and sea fishing is okay ?
M
Because ill informed townies have over regulated it with cumbersome and illogical firearms legislation, game handling regulations and all manner of other bad thought out rules. Its rarely worth people hunting for food now, its been made illegal for me to give an extra rabbit to my elderly neighbour.
….eh, I think you'll find that it's the Sporting Interests who actually instigated much of the original restrictions.
I'm in full agreement about the stupidity of not allowing you to pass along good food though.
M
I'm in full agreement about the stupidity of not allowing you to pass along good food though.
M
I'm certain that they didn't bring in the game handling laws (they campaigned against the madder provisions), they didn't want moderators and expanding ammunition to be restricted items.....I could go on, but why bother? You asked why Sportsman don't take more deer, I answered you. Feel free to ignore the answer if it doesn't suit you
Rhetorical question…..I was actually pointing out that the reason they don't is money.
That's actually at the root of much of it too, that and exclusive privilege. Only certain (read expensive) weapons were considered 'sporting', to the extent that ordinary folks were cut off from hunting.
That has had a knock on effect; most people have no connection between going, "Oh, look at that, isn't it cute ?", when looking at lambs, deer, etc., and the meat on the plate. When they do, it horrifies them, and before you know it, there's the root of the restrictive own goal for the sporting interests.
Folks who just quietly got on with acquiring dinner were proscribed as poachers. Even guddling for trout, with nothing but bare hands and patience is anathma to the sporting interests so it's always been illegal……as I was roundly told recently when I spoke of it on another thread
Honestly ? I think the entire thing needs a re-think and a sea change.
No, I don't want guns widely available to just anyone who asks. I would like to see licences processed quickly and efficiently for those who demonstrate that they are capable and able. I think that the deer should be actively herd controlled, but that takes staff, and the estates don't have the money for that, so good ones keep the numbers in balance and the bad ones let them grow and they keep moving into less densely cropped areas.
Rabbits ? there are health issues that unless someone is experienced enough to deal with them often and properly that there's a possibility of harm in the food chain……tbh I think that one should be a judgement call. If happy to eat the meat from rabbit shot by someone you know, then the onus is on the person themselves…..but when we can't even get unpasturised milk easily, good luck on that one.
Pasturized milk was a good thing though, not keen on the homogenised stuff….all that does is take off most of the cream and give another product to sell.
Anyway, on that note, fishing, bows and arrows…… and I'm away to buy fencing
M
That's actually at the root of much of it too, that and exclusive privilege. Only certain (read expensive) weapons were considered 'sporting', to the extent that ordinary folks were cut off from hunting.
That has had a knock on effect; most people have no connection between going, "Oh, look at that, isn't it cute ?
", when looking at lambs, deer, etc., and the meat on the plate. When they do, it horrifies them, and before you know it, there's the root of the restrictive own goal for the sporting interests.Folks who just quietly got on with acquiring dinner were proscribed as poachers. Even guddling for trout, with nothing but bare hands and patience is anathma to the sporting interests so it's always been illegal
……as I was roundly told recently when I spoke of it on another thread Honestly ? I think the entire thing needs a re-think and a sea change.
No, I don't want guns widely available to just anyone who asks. I would like to see licences processed quickly and efficiently for those who demonstrate that they are capable and able. I think that the deer should be actively herd controlled, but that takes staff, and the estates don't have the money for that, so good ones keep the numbers in balance and the bad ones let them grow and they keep moving into less densely cropped areas.
Rabbits ? there are health issues that unless someone is experienced enough to deal with them often and properly that there's a possibility of harm in the food chain……tbh I think that one should be a judgement call. If happy to eat the meat from rabbit shot by someone you know, then the onus is on the person themselves…..but when we can't even get unpasturised milk easily, good luck on that one.
Pasturized milk was a good thing though, not keen on the homogenised stuff….all that does is take off most of the cream and give another product to sell.
Anyway, on that note, fishing, bows and arrows…… and I'm away to buy fencing
M
Would you mind stating which weapons that are cheap, and appropriate to despatch "deer on the hill", have been banned? Oh and some evidence of lobbying from Sporting Interests would be appreciated
Not much of an answer. I grew up in Australia, spent most of my teenage years roaming the hills with bow and arrow.
Your description made me think you haven't done much. It is momentum that determines penetration, not kinetic energy. A heavy arrow will nearly always penetrate better than a light one.
Arrows don't 'fly through' the animals unless they haven't hit much. Animal moves a tad, you hit a bone, unlikely to penetrate well.
The point I'd like to make is that it takes considerably more care and attention to ensure a clean kill with a bow and arrow than with a rifle. I believe (possibly wrongly) that it is the norm for a trained stalker to accompany a less experienced shooter; when using a rifle there is an excellent chance of the trained person getting off a half-decently placed shot if the other person botches it.
I have no experience of the platform hunting popular in the USA. It seems an excellent way to bow-hunt to me, taking out much of the risk of a poor shot and making the most of poor ballistics of arrows. Just takes a bit of practise at shooting at a downhill angle.
I presume by "platform hunting" you mean from a tree stand? If so, then it isn't just popular, it's the norm.
Of course this would all have to be addressed. And it's also all fairly straightforward and simple.
Wild game can't be sold on here either. Not even if it HAS been inspected. So what? We still hunt; millions of us. Just fill your own freezer.
Game handling law is arrived at from food hygiene regulation. Stupid as that may be for small and informally shot game, it is relevant for commercial deer management where the end product will end up on the plate.
As to deer numbers, nothing to do with townies and everything to do with estate managers gilding the lily with deer numbers, or just miss managing deer control, and encouraging higher densities to make it easier for townies/less able guests to bag a stag. Some managers encourage feeding on the pretext of improving deer welfare, what they're actually doing is getting deer accustomed to hanging in easy to get to places for those unable to walk and stalk the hill. Feeders as they're know round here.
Calibres for shooting deer are well established in Scotland, .243 (although only really suitable with a heavier non fragmenting round) and up .270 being the round of choice, although .30-06 is increasingly popular.
22lr is the choice for poaching close quarters, usually from a car. The old school guys poached with rook guns, .30 sherwood and .360 No: 5 still being used into the early 70's by still active poaching OAP's. Such as my old neighbour.
Old habits die hard: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/old-habits-die-hard-for-legendary-poacher.117656320 Check out the fines, I call those "traditional" fines, get caught sticking a cross bow bold in a beasts rump and you can expect x 20 that level
I get the upset at the interfering eegits myself. But high deer numbers and the blame for this untenable situation can't be laid at the door of the antis and animal petters (I hit 3 deer last year, one runner that I think was fine, and two that needed the message: distracted with a strong torch and a stout stout whack on the noggin with my extendable wheel brace, not nice but where am I going to find a vet or legit armed keeper at 3am, 40 miles from anywhere?).
Lobbying? These guys are never off the news http://www.scottishlandandestates.c...&view=category&id=92&Itemid=125&tag=3&type=39
As to deer numbers, nothing to do with townies and everything to do with estate managers gilding the lily with deer numbers, or just miss managing deer control, and encouraging higher densities to make it easier for townies/less able guests to bag a stag. Some managers encourage feeding on the pretext of improving deer welfare, what they're actually doing is getting deer accustomed to hanging in easy to get to places for those unable to walk and stalk the hill. Feeders as they're know round here.
Calibres for shooting deer are well established in Scotland, .243 (although only really suitable with a heavier non fragmenting round) and up .270 being the round of choice, although .30-06 is increasingly popular.
22lr is the choice for poaching close quarters, usually from a car. The old school guys poached with rook guns, .30 sherwood and .360 No: 5 still being used into the early 70's by still active poaching OAP's. Such as my old neighbour.
Old habits die hard: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/home-news/old-habits-die-hard-for-legendary-poacher.117656320 Check out the fines, I call those "traditional" fines, get caught sticking a cross bow bold in a beasts rump and you can expect x 20 that level
I get the upset at the interfering eegits myself. But high deer numbers and the blame for this untenable situation can't be laid at the door of the antis and animal petters (I hit 3 deer last year, one runner that I think was fine, and two that needed the message: distracted with a strong torch and a stout stout whack on the noggin with my extendable wheel brace, not nice but where am I going to find a vet or legit armed keeper at 3am, 40 miles from anywhere?).
Lobbying? These guys are never off the news http://www.scottishlandandestates.c...&view=category&id=92&Itemid=125&tag=3&type=39
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