Another Knife Law (Age)

[Logical]

Ok im new to the forum but can see there's a lot of stuff on the knife law. I was just wondering what the legal age to be in possesion of a knife is. I know you have to be 18 to buy one but was wondering what the age is to have one on you in Scotland. I know the England and Scotland laws vary a good bit and Scotland is a little easier when i comes to public land ect.

Obviously im not going to be wielding it in public or carrying it round the shops but was wondering what age i have to be to have on in my rucksack with me ect. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Martyn]

There is no age restriction for possession of a knife.

 

[robin wood]

There is no age restriction for possession of a knife.

Thanks for that Martyn, our kids have carried Swiss army knives when out and about round the village from a young age, they are obviously trained in their safe use as tools, I had always thought it was OK but better to know.

 

[slammer187]

In Scotland I think you can buy and carry a slipjoint at any age......there's an article about it on BB!

 

[cockroach]

Even the government don't understand the law, quote from direct.gov.uk

‘Knife crime’ is any crime that involves a knife.
This can include:
* carrying or trying to buy a knife if you’re under 18

You'd think they would at least try to get it right, rather than trying to imply that under 18s shouldn't carry knives.

 

[Martyn]

Well depending on how you read it (I think they have missed a comma out) ...they are either saying that carrying a knife is illegal, or that carrying a knife if you are under 18 is illegal - both are wrong.

 

[nigeltm]

I've created a thread on the UKpoliceonline forum asking the same question as I want to know if my daughters can carry a Leatherman Micro as an EDC.

http://www.ukpoliceonline.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=41216

No response yet, but you never know.

 

[_scorpio_]

i would be interested to see what replies/corrections are made to your post. i am 15 and on the odd occasion i go out apart from bushcraft i dont take a knife, its not even worth the bother. under 18's are targeted for searches more than over 18's (unless they look dodgy) so its not worth the hassle trying to explain why i am carrying a knife, even completely legally.

 

[Martyn]

I've created a thread on the UKpoliceonline forum asking the same question as I want to know if my daughters can carry a Leatherman Micro as an EDC.

http://www.ukpoliceonline.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=41216

No response yet, but you never know.

Good general summary, but these points are a little off....

- A knife is only considered to be an offensive weapon under the Prevention of Crime Act 1953 if it is designed to be a weapon (e.g. Fairbairn-Sykes commando knife), if it is another type of knife (e.g. kitchen knife) if it is carried with the intent to be used as a weapon (even if for self defense) or if it is another type of knife (e.g. kitchen knife) actually used as a weapon or in a threatening manner.

Your definitions are wrong, check the wording of the '53 PCA. There are 3 criteria for off-weaps....

1. Any item designed to be a weapon (eg sykes fairbairn)
2. Any item adapted to be a weapon (eg pick-axe handle with nails in it)
3. Any item carried with intent to use as a weapon.

Designed, adapted and intent. These are the only 3 criteria for off-weaps (aside from items specifically listed as off-weaps per se). The first 2 are a done deal and easy. The last one is "intent" and that is the tricky one. It's "intent" that you fall foul of, when saying "i wuz carryin it fer self defence guvnor" - you have confessed intent. If you dont confess intent, then the police/CPS/Courts have to prove intent through circumstance, behaviour and context - it's a hard thing to prove what's on somebody's mind.

- Offensive weapons do not exist in a private place (e.g. home or restricted access garden). So it is possible, for example, to own a Fairbairn-Sykes commando knife (possibly as part of a collection) a machette or lock knife and keep it at home.

Off weaps most certainly do exist on private property, the same 3 criteria as explained above apply. However, all the offences concerning the carry of off-weaps only apply to carriage in a public place. Again, check the wording of the '53 PCA for confirmation. There is no offence for having an off-weap in your home. You can have a baseball bat with 9 inch nails in it, it's definitely an offensive weapon, but as it is not in public, there is no offence. You can have a hammer by your bed and quite openly state that it is for self defence. It is an offensive weapon (by intent), but there is no crime because it is not in a public place. You can hang a sword on your wall - it's designed as a weapon and is a weapon by definition, but perfectly legal in your house because the law says it's only a crime to carry an offensive weapon in a public place.

It is not a crime to possess or carry an offensive weapon on private property.

Hope that helps.

 

[Martyn]

i would be interested to see what replies/corrections are made to your post. i am 15 and on the odd occasion i go out apart from bushcraft i dont take a knife, its not even worth the bother. under 18's are targeted for searches more than over 18's (unless they look dodgy) so its not worth the hassle trying to explain why i am carrying a knife, even completely legally.

Remember possession of an offensive weapon can apply to any item (ball pen, hammer etc), this means it can include any knife, legal or not. If you have any knife on your person, you can be charged with carrying an offensive weapon on suspicion of your intent to use it as a weapon, even if the knife is technically legal.

 

[Martyn]

Thanks for that Martyn, our kids have carried Swiss army knives when out and about round the village from a young age, they are obviously trained in their safe use as tools, I had always thought it was OK but better to know.

The only thing they could be charged with Robin, is possession of an offensive weapon. A swiss army knife is not designed as a weapon, it's not adapted for use as a weapon, that leaves just intent to use as a weapon. That boils down to their behaviour. If they are well trained and act responsibly, then they are not committing any offence and the police would have an impossible time proving otherwise. Of course if they start waiving the knife at people in a threatening manner, that changes everything.

It's a good idea to take them through a little role play of what to say to a policeman if they get asked about their knives.

 

[Logical]

Thanks everyone for there input. Another thing i've noticed is that sites like Amazon dont do anything to stop you buying knives they just put in a notice that says:

"Not for sale to persons under the age of 18. By placing an order for this product, you declare that you are 18 years of age or over. This item must be used responsibly and appropriately."

Although they give you this notice they dont ask any questions. You can pay for it with a Visa Elctron wich anyone can get at age 11+. Its really not as if they are botheredd at all. Is Amazon actually commiting a crime by selling it to someone underage?

 

[Martyn]

Is Amazon actually commiting a crime by selling it to someone underage?

Yes.

I dont think that they are not bothered, it's just that it's very difficult to get proof of age. Ebay found it easier to ban the sale of knives altogether.

 

[nigeltm]

Good general summary, but these points are a little off....


Your definitions are wrong, check the wording of the '53 PCA. There are 3 criteria for off-weaps....

1. Any item designed to be a weapon (eg sykes fairbairn)
2. Any item adapted to be a weapon (eg pick-axe handle with nails in it)
3. Any item carried with intent to use as a weapon.

Designed, adapted and intent. These are the only 3 criteria for off-weaps (aside from items specifically listed as off-weaps per se). The first 2 are a done deal and easy. The last one is "intent" and that is the tricky one. It's "intent" that you fall foul of, when saying "i wuz carryin it fer self defence guvnor" - you have confessed intent. If you dont confess intent, then the police/CPS/Courts have to prove intent through circumstance, behaviour and context - it's a hard thing to prove what's on somebody's mind.



Off weaps most certainly do exist on private property, the same 3 criteria as explained above apply. However, all the offences concerning the carry of off-weaps only apply to carriage in a public place. Again, check the wording of the '53 PCA for confirmation. There is no offence for having an off-weap in your home. You can have a baseball bat with 9 inch nails in it, it's definitely an offensive weapon, but as it is not in public, there is no offence. You can have a hammer by your bed and quite openly state that it is for self defence. It is an offensive weapon (by intent), but there is no crime because it is not in a public place. You can hang a sword on your wall - it's designed as a weapon and is a weapon by definition, but perfectly legal in your house because the law says it's only a crime to carry an offensive weapon in a public place.

It is not a crime to possess or carry an offensive weapon on private property.

Hope that helps.

Hi Martyn, thanks for the feedback but I was trying to simplify the Act and give examples. I didn't give an example of adapted as with a knife it seems a bit pointless On the Police site there are a number of threads looking at off weapons and as you say intent is the difficult one. This is why I tried to explain intent using the 2 examples; planning to use (very difficult to prove unless you confess!) and showing intent by your actions (actually threatening someone). There is a current thread where they are discussing keeping a rescue hammer in the car for it's designed purpose or to ward of carjackers. As for off weapons in the home I have a number! Between my martial arts days ( swords and halberds) and an interest in militeria (antique bayonet collection) I keep a mini armoury at home without fear of arrest. Oh yes, and I keep a 6 cell Maglight next to the bed, just in case .... the power goes out of course!

 

[Minotaur]

Oh yes, and I keep a 6 cell Maglight next to the bed, just in case .... the power goes out of course!

I keep my Cold Steel Bushman by my bed for the same reason, honest Thinking about it my current crop of users are in a drawer in the bedside table, with my maglites.

On topic, are they members of the scouts etc they used to have a thing about when in uniform. Think the assocation has done away with it but might be wrong. It not law, was a local agreement with the top cop.

This might be a point for someone in the know, but can someone under 18 or 16 claim the same level in law as an adult. What I mean is we could explain it, is the copper just going to nick them? Would targets not play a really big role in this as well?

 

[Minotaur]

Yes.

I dont think that they are not bothered, it's just that it's very difficult to get proof of age. Ebay found it easier to ban the sale of knives altogether.

This drives me a little nuts!

Make it payment by card, has to be sent to card holders address, and then add an age check to the card holder.

Ebay could have done this really easy, though Paypal but went for the headlines instead. What actual drives me nuts, is their stores still sell multi-tools, but I cannot buy Leatherman stuff from the US, were it is half the price.

Have always been told to carry stuff so that two things need to be done to use them. Apprently this hammers home the intent, so Martial Arts weapons etc if transported in this way then used would get you big time. That is why martial artists are advised to carry their stuff in a bag in a weapons bag. The point sort of being you cannot just reach into your bag and use them.

 

[Logical]

I also dont understand why ebay band the sale of knives. To get an ebay account you have yo be 18 and be using a credit card anyway which you cant get until your 18.

Seems like it was just a too much hassle for them so they went with whatever was easiest and make them look best.

 

[gregorach]

I also dont understand why ebay band the sale of knives. To get an ebay account you have yo be 18 and be using a credit card anyway which you cant get until your 18.

I have an eBay account, but I don't have a credit card...

 

[slammer187]

I also dont understand why ebay band the sale of knives. To get an ebay account you have yo be 18 and be using a credit card anyway which you cant get until your 18.

Seems like it was just a too much hassle for them so they went with whatever was easiest and make them look best.

You can use a debit card to buy knives online...there's some video where a journalist gets this kid to use his debit card to buy machetes and things online.

 

[Logical]

You can use a debit card to buy knives online...there's some video where a journalist gets this kid to use his debit card to buy machetes and things online.

I bought a gerber suspension multi-tool from amazon without any problems an i'm sure not 18. I'm not the kinda guy to go showing it off in the street but i'm sure there are people like that!

As for using a debit card on ebay i'll have to check that out coz im sure there are certain cards you cant use.