animals recognising death

[xylaria]

We came across something to which apart from bringing a tear to my eye at the time, has left me with quite profound questions.

We were driving down the A road, at the top of the village when i spotted a ginger cat pawing another cat lying on the grass. We stopped to see what help the cat needed. It was dead, cold rigor borne with a head injury. The ginger cat walked away as we approached and stood by the wall. It just stood there, hunched slightly staring at the other cat with it is eyes in what would be a slight frown on a person. I walked to the house it seemed to belong to and banged loudly on the door. The ginger cat moved to the wall top and just kept staring at the dead cat with the same pose. There was no answer and we told a nieghbour. As we drove off the ginger cat had gone back to pawing at the dead cat.

Although other animals are known exhibit grief behaviour, I was supprised to witness something along the lines in cats. The tender concern it was showing is what made me cry, that is my human social empathy. Domestic cats have a reputation of uncaring killing machines. They are obviously more complex than that, but it is hard to frame their emotions without using a human base line.

 

[abominable_scouse_monster]

That is indeed a interesting observation, I have heard storys of Dog's mourning the owner like the one a few years ago where the Army handler died and the dog died a few days after but was a nervous wreck the whole time not leaving the side of the handler, and of course Blackfriars Bobby, but I think with dog's and humans it's a little different they are part of the family and make attachments to people in a way cat's don't, on a purely anecdotal level I know dog's do miss family members when they disappear for a period of time unexpectedly for example if I go away for a week my dog get's on my bed and mopes till I get home, I have also seen her miss other animals, one when her friend the dog next door moved away, and two when our Cat died she moped for weeks.

But they must form social groups, hell in the place I just finished at we had hundreds of Cat's living in the press shop and I have wondered about the groups they formed and why etc. But I haven't given much thought to social and emotional attachment that may form.

 

[Outdoordude]

Apparently crows have very tight bonds with one another. When one dies they get very emotional.

 

[greensurfingbear]

It was pawing the dead one to see which parts were most tender for munching on.

Seriously though I totally agree that many animals have emotions after years of wildlife documentaries and study you'd think most people would agree. Maybe not emotions the way we feel them but some kind of emotion that in our arrogance we dismiss as instinct or as a lesser response to the way we behave.






Orric

 

[abominable_scouse_monster]

Apparently crows have very tight bonds with one another. When one dies they get very emotional.

That's nots true in my personal experience, I have seen crows pick at other dead crows. The only time I have seen them get social is the breading season even then they are not that social or defensive of the young.

 

[British Red]

When a crow dies, its a good crow

 

[abominable_scouse_monster]

When a crow dies, its a good crow

Yep, Corvids are all horrid animals but are interesting to watch.

 

[HillBill]

Animals have feelings... i totally believe it.... i also believe they understand much more than most folk would ever give them credit for. Seen too many things to believe otherwise.

 

[British Red]

Yep, Corvids are all horrid animals but are interesting to watch.

Agreed - clever creatures - tool users in fact. Truly unpleasant birds though in my view.....which reminds me, we need to thin them out a bit round here

 

[Jared]

The baby elephant dying in the TV series Africa whilst its mother was trying to coax it to continue, and then finally realising and giving up was an emotional thing to watch.

 

[abominable_scouse_monster]

Agreed - clever creatures - tool users in fact. Truly unpleasant birds though in my view.....which reminds me, we need to thin them out a bit round here

You are right, nasty birds.

If you want Larson Trap plans let me know mate, I also have a line on Larson springs too if you want them.

 

[Outdoordude]

That's nots true in my personal experience, I have seen crows pick at other dead crows. The only time I have seen them get social is the breading season even then they are not that social or defensive of the young.

Ahh that's interesting to know. I'm no expert just my dad saw a load wheeling an calling over a dead crows body. Not eating it just flying around. When he looked it up that's what he saw.

 

[treadlightly]

Why are crows 'horrid' and 'unpleasant'?

 

[Dave]

Animals have feelings... i totally believe it.... i also believe they understand much more than most folk would ever give them credit for. Seen too many things to believe otherwise.

Yeh. I'd completely agree with that. Im ok with killing animals for the table. I do occasionally. What I cant stand are the hunters, who would immeadiately label you an 'anti' and give you a barrage of abuse, for having any sort of feeling about it at all.

 

[xylaria]

We put judgement on animals using human emotions as the bench mark. Crows will peck the eyes and tongues off lambs. It is vile by human standards, but it is an easy meal to a crow. The cat yesterday had already had the eye done by a crow, and a kite was flying nearby. A cat will play with a crippled mouse for horrid lenght of time. Corvids will make a sizable noise when then find or see one thier own been shot. It appears to be like a wake in humans but it maybe a warning mob. Considering they can count guns into hide and know and air gun from rifle , the complexity of thier bahaviour means we should reserve judgement

 

[woof]

There was a youtube clip posted recently, in which a dog was run over on a motorway somewere, & was then rescued by another dog.

Rob

 

[British Red]

I think animals certainly exhibit behaviour - its hard to know what "emotions" they are feeling. In the OP one could see the cat as:

mourning
curious
checking for death
considering eating it

I have certainly seen behaviour I would associate with mourning (New Forest Pony trying to rouse a dead foal all night)...but it could have been confusion, uncertainty if its really dead etc. I've certainly seen "brave" behaviour of animals protecting their young....but is it "brave" or instict....or even foolishness. For sure animals are capable of surprising and startling things, and I think its certain they must experience compulsion. I have to beware thinking I know what they are feeling - or ascribing my feelings to them. I'm not sure what feeling would make a mother eat her young for example - but I've seen animals do it. I guess this is because they are not the same as me.

I guess what I am saying is whilst I suspect they do have feelings, they are not human feelings.

 

[HillBill]

There was also one in which a leopard killed a baboon and realized it had a baby with it. It looked after the baby.

[video=youtube;RaUDVAlavPI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaUDVAlavPI[/video]

 

[nobbi]

I'm new on here. Sorry if i jump in unwanted. All life will do whatever it takes to survive, Protect young ones until they are able to fend for themselve or even have thousands of offspring so at least the lucky few will make it. So of course they are aware of, fear and grieve death. They will do this in the way they evolved to do it and not the way we do it with our facial expressions or sounds. If we knew All about them then they could teach us. They are certainly much more evolved to survive than modern humans seem to be. Corvids are doing what corvids have evolved to do to survive. We may think its horrible what they do but you would eat your neighbours pet dog if you were truly hungry. Its life and death all day and all night, because all life has evolved to survive at all costs. Thats why we feck up our enviroment. I have seen a cute pony in a field a few years ago, when we had no grass, kill a rabbit! I assume to protect its food. I was watching to see where the rabbits were hanging out so i could havest a few for my freezer. The pony reached forward with its front right hoof and pulled it very quickly backwards at the rabbits head. The rabbit flopped and died. Not a mark on it either. The other rabbits looked up and hopped slowly away. The pony kept on eating with not a second glance at the motionless rabbit and only moved away as i got close.

 

[Dave]

Arent emotions, just hardwired genetic behaviour and chemicals? Just because their brains are pathologically different to ours, doesnt mean they are inferior.

Not wanting to derail thread, but for the overwhelming majority of human history we thought of animals as equals didnt we? Brothers. We're only now beginning to understand that 15,000 years ago, or therebouts, we began to think of ourselves as different.