Mee too - and having to go looking for the ambulance as it gets lost
I still wouldn't have it any other way though!
Me neither!
Ach - what's a little pain, once in a while?
You know your OUT IN THE COUNTRY when!
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Me neither!
Ach - what's a little pain, once in a while?
Where 15 minutes walk from my house, I am passing my next-door neighbor and still 20 minutes from town,
When you can hear your neighbor swearing at his dog as it scatters the sheep instead of gathering them, in a field more than a mile away!
Where two drivers can stop in the road for a chat and a third pulls up behind and turns his engine off to show that he is not in a hurry to get past.
Where its hard to sleep, the night that the calves are taken for slaughter as their mothers bellow their grief.
Tried the whole urban thing - I'll stick with the sticks!
ATB
Ogri the trog
When you can hear your neighbor swearing at his dog as it scatters the sheep instead of gathering them, in a field more than a mile away!
Where two drivers can stop in the road for a chat and a third pulls up behind and turns his engine off to show that he is not in a hurry to get past.
Where its hard to sleep, the night that the calves are taken for slaughter as their mothers bellow their grief.
Tried the whole urban thing - I'll stick with the sticks!
ATB
Ogri the trog
You know you are in the country when you are more worried about over friendly cows than you are about unfriendly people 
.
.
J
jay1
Guest
Totally agree how rich a life is living alongside the animals and landscape. Heres a quotation i heard recently.
"Man's heart away from nature becomes hard; The lack of respect for growing, living things soon leads to a lack of respect for humans too. It is good to keep our youth close to its softening influence."
From my own experience of now living 1 mile from my closest neighbour and 4 miles from the nearest shop; living on a farm for my first 17 years; working on it hard though intermitttently during the intervening years, i feel that i can say i am most content when living alongside the rough and tumble of nature and the cycle of a farm. I agree with the horrible ache i felt and "Ogri" mentioned of seeing the sheep and cattle going to the abattoir and feel that it gives a true appreciation of the food on our plates.
LIving in tune with nature is so important for the balance in our lives, is it not?
I do feel that there are however many city people who do have this appreciation and i would be very reluctant to generalize about the visitors to our countryside!!! People bound by the limitations of city life often can have much more appreciation of the wildlife and nature. My mum is a city girl who married a farmer and is more into nature than most farmers wives!!
Do others feel this is a fair comment? It is so important not to have the "them and us" attitude that i saw in my school (the townies and the hicks) continuing into our adult lives!!!!
"Man's heart away from nature becomes hard; The lack of respect for growing, living things soon leads to a lack of respect for humans too. It is good to keep our youth close to its softening influence."
From my own experience of now living 1 mile from my closest neighbour and 4 miles from the nearest shop; living on a farm for my first 17 years; working on it hard though intermitttently during the intervening years, i feel that i can say i am most content when living alongside the rough and tumble of nature and the cycle of a farm. I agree with the horrible ache i felt and "Ogri" mentioned of seeing the sheep and cattle going to the abattoir and feel that it gives a true appreciation of the food on our plates.
LIving in tune with nature is so important for the balance in our lives, is it not?
I do feel that there are however many city people who do have this appreciation and i would be very reluctant to generalize about the visitors to our countryside!!! People bound by the limitations of city life often can have much more appreciation of the wildlife and nature. My mum is a city girl who married a farmer and is more into nature than most farmers wives!!
Do others feel this is a fair comment? It is so important not to have the "them and us" attitude that i saw in my school (the townies and the hicks) continuing into our adult lives!!!!
Maybe we're biased. Until the realisation that the old Strathclyde region was actually the de facto government for half of Scotland's population and created political nightmares for Whitehall, the same resources were offered to *all* of it's inhabitants, regardless of where one stayed within the region.
In effect this meant, that despite cost, if one lived in a but an ben in the back end of beyond, two ferry journeys from the mainland, or in a third storey flat in a densely packed city, that the same facilities, from health care to school provision were offered.....and at the same financial rate. It can be done, and successfully too.
Why should country dwellers be penalised for living there, why should in effect financial restrictions create a situation where only the wealthy can afford to buy houses there ?
To be honest I can understand why (see other thread) many people find the countryside boring. It is after all a man made desert in many ways. Industrialised agriculture, deer, grouse and sheep denuded hillsides, regimented plantation woodlands, prey/ predator inbalances, ..........and in England and Wales it's even worse.........."Git off my land !!! " , no free access to waterways, to land or woods.
People belong in countryside, it is our natural environment.
To restrict access to it, to claim if for exclusive use takes selfishness to extremes.
To remove people from it to create a 'natural'
environment is just arrogance beyond stupidity too though.
What is needed is the reconnection of people to the land, to the way it is used, the seasonal round of life and death; an education and change in attitude and responsibility that reduces the damage inflicted by sheer laziness and bad behaviour.
Personally I can imagine no sweeter life than open skies above me......well, above the trees clean waters flowing, open hillsides, beaches and forests on my doorstep. If more people grew their own fruit and veg and herbs, kept a few more
animals around, maybe we wouldn't be in the state we are with such pathetic ignorance.
How on Earth someone didn't recognise a sheep though ??, let alone one in ten ..............babies are taught about them in nursery schools for heavens sake.............I'd like someone I trust's opinion on the questionaire and the way it was presented before I believe the results to be honest.
cheers,
Toddy
In effect this meant, that despite cost, if one lived in a but an ben in the back end of beyond, two ferry journeys from the mainland, or in a third storey flat in a densely packed city, that the same facilities, from health care to school provision were offered.....and at the same financial rate. It can be done, and successfully too.
Why should country dwellers be penalised for living there, why should in effect financial restrictions create a situation where only the wealthy can afford to buy houses there ?
To be honest I can understand why (see other thread) many people find the countryside boring. It is after all a man made desert in many ways. Industrialised agriculture, deer, grouse and sheep denuded hillsides, regimented plantation woodlands, prey/ predator inbalances, ..........and in England and Wales it's even worse.........."Git off my land !!! " , no free access to waterways, to land or woods.
People belong in countryside, it is our natural environment.
To restrict access to it, to claim if for exclusive use takes selfishness to extremes.
To remove people from it to create a 'natural'
environment is just arrogance beyond stupidity too though. What is needed is the reconnection of people to the land, to the way it is used, the seasonal round of life and death; an education and change in attitude and responsibility that reduces the damage inflicted by sheer laziness and bad behaviour.
Personally I can imagine no sweeter life than open skies above me......well, above the trees
clean waters flowing, open hillsides, beaches and forests on my doorstep. If more people grew their own fruit and veg and herbs, kept a few more animals around, maybe we wouldn't be in the state we are with such pathetic ignorance.
How on Earth someone didn't recognise a sheep though ??, let alone one in ten
..............babies are taught about them in nursery schools for heavens sake.............I'd like someone I trust's opinion on the questionaire and the way it was presented before I believe the results to be honest.cheers,
Toddy
J
jay1
Guest
with rights come responsibility then?
i mean, how would a rambler who left gates open, parked on a verge and blocked the access of a tracto to his field on the one sunny day of the month for harvest time, drove so fast that a mum on the school run felt fear...how would that man like another person to come into his office or his private workspace, disregard company health and safety, sit down at a desk and have a cuppa and watch the work life around him. Am i being unfair???Please say so if you think i am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, i agree with the last comment...who amongst us can really live in isolation. what a lonely countryside it would be. I think that re-education is important.
Toddy, talking of nursery schools, have you heard of the forest schools idea? where kids spend nursey and primary school time in the woods? Get them early i say!!!!! let them feel a sense of ownership and a sense of belonging to nature. a child of the woods? nature deficit syndrome is rife isnt it? i mean, how many city folk do you know who are full of fear of the wall of green and would never want to camp alaone inthe woods with the sounds of leaves falling, creaking of tree boughs, sounds of nocturnal animals moving through the undergrowth...!!!!the first time that i camped out in the woods alone i wondered at every sound, amplified as they were by the silence of the night and by my vivid imagination!!!
Have any of you come across the concept of forest schools?
Here is a link...
http://forestschool-training.co.uk/sitemap.aspx
I feel very drawn to getting involved in this concept, helping with setting something like this up in my own area. Permaculture is another great way to get people involved in working on the land in projects and to see the countryside as less of a giant outdoor gym and more of a working environment.
i mean, how would a rambler who left gates open, parked on a verge and blocked the access of a tracto to his field on the one sunny day of the month for harvest time, drove so fast that a mum on the school run felt fear...how would that man like another person to come into his office or his private workspace, disregard company health and safety, sit down at a desk and have a cuppa and watch the work life around him. Am i being unfair???Please say so if you think i am!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, i agree with the last comment...who amongst us can really live in isolation. what a lonely countryside it would be. I think that re-education is important.
Toddy, talking of nursery schools, have you heard of the forest schools idea? where kids spend nursey and primary school time in the woods? Get them early i say!!!!! let them feel a sense of ownership and a sense of belonging to nature. a child of the woods? nature deficit syndrome is rife isnt it? i mean, how many city folk do you know who are full of fear of the wall of green and would never want to camp alaone inthe woods with the sounds of leaves falling, creaking of tree boughs, sounds of nocturnal animals moving through the undergrowth...!!!!the first time that i camped out in the woods alone i wondered at every sound, amplified as they were by the silence of the night and by my vivid imagination!!!
Have any of you come across the concept of forest schools?
Here is a link...
http://forestschool-training.co.uk/sitemap.aspx
I feel very drawn to getting involved in this concept, helping with setting something like this up in my own area. Permaculture is another great way to get people involved in working on the land in projects and to see the countryside as less of a giant outdoor gym and more of a working environment.
More than "Five exclamation marks, the sure sign of an insane mind".
(Reaper Man Sir Terry Pratchett)
J
jay1
Guest
LOL!!!
well spotted "tadpole"
i imagine you have a cute tail which you are sorry is shrinking but that you are very excited at your first leap onto the pond bank and fresh air "!!!!"
(4 exclamation marks, see, i am getting better)
How interesting
I view it that to demand rights to something, without any responsibility to it is incredibly selfish
"I want to use it...its my right"
How much have you put into it?
"Nothing"
How much money have you spent on it?
"Zero"
How much effort have you expended on planting the trees, maintaining the walls and hedges?
"Not one second"
How much will you do to repair the erosion you cause, wood you burn, plants you trample?
"Nothing - other people need to do that - its just my playground"
How much of all the money you earn will you give to the people who maintain your playground?
"not a brass farthing"
Do you mind if the people who do all this for you come and use the things you spend your money on?
"Of course- those things are mine - why should I share them"?
Rights without responsibility are the most selfish thing of all.
Red
But Red,
It's called the "responsible right of access"
We argue this one too frequently.
Different world view of people. I like them and I think they're all worth giving a chance and probably another one too as they learn.
Let's let others have their say and keep our dispute to pm shall we ?
cheers,
M
It's called the "responsible right of access"
We argue this one too frequently.
Different world view of people. I like them and I think they're all worth giving a chance and probably another one too as they learn.
Let's let others have their say and keep our dispute to pm shall we ?
cheers,
M
Happy to discuss by pm - but also reserve the right to dispute your defintion of selfish as your opinion - not a matter of fact.
So many Scottish members describe the destruction, litter, noise and pollution caused by the "responsible right of access" that I feel a balancing view of what is "selfish" and indeed reasonable is needed. You think the ways you prefer are correct. Thats fine. But it doesn't make these things correct, valid or proven- merely one of many opinions - which, in a balanced discussion, deserve equal "air time"
Red
So many Scottish members describe the destruction, litter, noise and pollution caused by the "responsible right of access" that I feel a balancing view of what is "selfish" and indeed reasonable is needed. You think the ways you prefer are correct. Thats fine. But it doesn't make these things correct, valid or proven- merely one of many opinions - which, in a balanced discussion, deserve equal "air time"
Red
Okay, since you wish this public response.
The responsible rights of access are just that. That some act irresponsibly in no way destroys the principle for the majority.
The understanding and appreciation of what we have is growing, and people are learning the responsibilities that go hand in hand with rights. It will be slow in some areas, especially where the infra structure is not sufficient to deal with the pressure of numbers..........not enough toilets so inevitably there are problems with waste. Bins are not adequately provided or emptied in a timely fashion.....but things are changing. New training has been given to Ranger Services, new skills and new guidelines.
I'm an optimist but so far, it's going well despite the horrendous vandalism in some areas.
You ask about walls and fences............well build stiles so people can climb over your walls and fences without damaging them..............field boundaries are fine to walk, leave crops and beasts undisturbed..........it goes two ways.
For a nation so divorced from it's rural roots it is inevitable that there will be some conflict of opinion, but I really feel that the changes afoot that will allow freedom of movement are to the betterment of all. Not keeping the country as a private playground for some self styled elite. That's selfishness.
I shan't respond further on this; it's an old arguement BR, wait and see what the future holds
cheers,
M
The responsible rights of access are just that. That some act irresponsibly in no way destroys the principle for the majority.
The understanding and appreciation of what we have is growing, and people are learning the responsibilities that go hand in hand with rights. It will be slow in some areas, especially where the infra structure is not sufficient to deal with the pressure of numbers..........not enough toilets so inevitably there are problems with waste. Bins are not adequately provided or emptied in a timely fashion.....but things are changing. New training has been given to Ranger Services, new skills and new guidelines.
I'm an optimist
but so far, it's going well despite the horrendous vandalism in some areas.You ask about walls and fences............well build stiles so people can climb over your walls and fences without damaging them..............field boundaries are fine to walk, leave crops and beasts undisturbed..........it goes two ways.
For a nation so divorced from it's rural roots it is inevitable that there will be some conflict of opinion, but I really feel that the changes afoot that will allow freedom of movement are to the betterment of all. Not keeping the country as a private playground for some self styled elite. That's selfishness.
I shan't respond further on this; it's an old arguement BR, wait and see what the future holds
cheers,
M
Hi British Red and Toddy. May I add my own personal experience with you both?
I have lived in Scotland, Wales and England. I have also lived abroad where people are free to roam the land much like 'right to roam' up here in Scotland. Now I have to say I have noticed a huge glaring discrepency between people here in the UK and abroad. Heres my observations for what its worth.
UK.
English and Welsh people moan about not having right to roam - yet they come to Scotland and a majority make a right royal pigs ear of the wilderness. Plastic bags, wrappers, tins, everything you could think of, its left behind (in Wales, they found a wheel chair on Snowdon!) in a most thoughtless manner.
There is also massive disrespect for those who actually have paid and own the very land they are walking across - people in a majority have a very confrontational attitude to this matter and very little respect for those who they opposed to.
Europe.
The hill walker travels light. They travel full of care and pride, and take great pains to observe rules and regulations. They have respect for the land owner, and yet more importantly, respect for themselves and their fellow hikers/walkers/climbers. They stop and talk to land owners, they even take time to break bread with people they meet if offered, and if they see anything that needs the attention of the land owner, they tell them.
They keep their dogs under control and don't leave those ###### sh##### bags tied to trees or tucked into stone walls.
Now I know this is a generalisation, but, its one borne from 18 years of mountain walking all across Europe and further afield.
The UK has possibly the worst 'city / rush to the mountains' mentality I have ever come across, and they don't give a damn who they trample on or whos day they ruin as long as they have their 'great weekend out'.
Rant over. Sorry to butt in, but time and time again in the mountains I have to remind people again and again to tidy up after their little adventures - that includes the remotest beach on the remote Hebrides last summer. Litter bugs, I despise you.
I have lived in Scotland, Wales and England. I have also lived abroad where people are free to roam the land much like 'right to roam' up here in Scotland. Now I have to say I have noticed a huge glaring discrepency between people here in the UK and abroad. Heres my observations for what its worth.
UK.
English and Welsh people moan about not having right to roam - yet they come to Scotland and a majority make a right royal pigs ear of the wilderness. Plastic bags, wrappers, tins, everything you could think of, its left behind (in Wales, they found a wheel chair on Snowdon!) in a most thoughtless manner.
There is also massive disrespect for those who actually have paid and own the very land they are walking across - people in a majority have a very confrontational attitude to this matter and very little respect for those who they opposed to.
Europe.
The hill walker travels light. They travel full of care and pride, and take great pains to observe rules and regulations. They have respect for the land owner, and yet more importantly, respect for themselves and their fellow hikers/walkers/climbers. They stop and talk to land owners, they even take time to break bread with people they meet if offered, and if they see anything that needs the attention of the land owner, they tell them.
They keep their dogs under control and don't leave those ###### sh##### bags tied to trees or tucked into stone walls.
Now I know this is a generalisation, but, its one borne from 18 years of mountain walking all across Europe and further afield.
The UK has possibly the worst 'city / rush to the mountains' mentality I have ever come across, and they don't give a damn who they trample on or whos day they ruin as long as they have their 'great weekend out'.
Rant over. Sorry to butt in, but time and time again in the mountains I have to remind people again and again to tidy up after their little adventures - that includes the remotest beach on the remote Hebrides last summer. Litter bugs, I despise you.
Right to roam should come with a set of cards each walker has to have in their pocket at all times - First rule - I shall respect those who own the land I am walking across. Second rule - I shall respect the land I am walking / camping in / across and tidy up my own damn mess and not leave it for some one else.
forestwalker
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
There is two laces where the public money can help. If the county or even ramblers associations offer to pay for/build stiles? If schools as a matter of course teach the rules of responsible access?
We have that right, and I could not even begin to count the number of times I have sern the rules, from an easrly age on upwards. There is still conflict (what if someone makes money guiding groups over your land, several times a week every season?), but the worst vandalism is avoided.
Well, I guess the victims of vandalism would disagree with you -
However, you are entitled to your views as we are to ours. In our country we don't have these laws - and many will campaign to prevent such irresponsible "rights" ever being allowed. Fortunately the world is changing - and the proponents of such things will not hold any power come the next election (if current opinion polls have any credibility). However we stray to politics so I'll leave it there - although even that far North you may hear the cheers !
Red
Well, I guess the victims of vandalism would disagree with you -
However, you are entitled to your views as we are to ours. In our country we don't have these laws - and many will campaign to prevent such irresponsible "rights" ever being allowed. Fortunately the world is changing - and the proponents of such things will not hold any power come the next election (if current opinion polls have any credibility). However we stray to politics so I'll leave it there - although even that far North you may hear the cheers !
Red
Roll on that glorious day when we get these nulab destroyers of our nation out! Oooops politics. Sorry mods
Pay for the plumbing / septic tank and building materials and upkeep then. Or, use a container and take it with you.
Bins? ##### off your having a laugh. Take it with you - You carry it in, you carry it out. Bins? what will you want next? their house?
Pay for the stiles then. Pay for these things you want. Why do you expect them for free? Heres a novel idea - set up a group to make these styles you want - or at least fund them with some donations.
You talk about selfishness yet expect so much for free. Thats true selfishness - the attitude that everything for your wants should be catered for and you don't have to lift a finger.
