Words fail me!

[British Red]

Pity you didn't read the whole article. But - as is the case with so many of the naysayers of modern medicine - never let the facts get in the way of a good rant

I did read the whole article - the olive flies are not related to mosquitos - so, other than using a similar technique, explain to me how using gentetically modified olive flies saves lives (which is your implication).

You are calling me a "naysayer of modern medicine" - how is genetically modifying olive flies anything to do with medicine??????

 

[SJStuart]

Seem to remember a movie with a plot starting somewhat like this.... "Mimic" if memory serves!

 

[Andy BB]

I did read the whole article - the olive flies are not related to mosquitos - so, other than using a similar technique, explain to me how using gentetically modified olive flies saves lives (which is your implication).

You are calling me a "naysayer of modern medicine" - how is genetically modifying olive flies anything to do with medicine??????

If you read the whole article, you would'nt have to ask the question! However, to make it simpler for you, let me quote a couple of relevant paras.

" In the most recent trial in Brazil - in a town called Mandacaru - the company has reported a 96% reduction in the dengue mosquito (Aedes aegypti) population.

The scientists use almost identical technology in their fruit fly research, with the ultimate aim of rearing a female-killing strain of GM male flies".

If you cannot see the link between the two, and similarly don't understand how eliminating the anopheles mosquito (yes, I know the dengue-carrying mosquito is different to the anopheles mosquito, but the process for anopheles is similar, and engue fever itself is a major killer and spreading rapidly worlwide) will save three million lives a year, then there is no hope for you! You try to make a clear distinction between medicine and science (in this case GM research and application), without understanding that the two are closely intertwined. You wouldn't have modern medicine without modern science. Are analytical machines medicine? When they are analysing your blood for problems, or scanning your body for issues, is that medicine or science? When - following years of scientific research in the lab - drug companies come up with new drugs that - for example - extend the lives of AIDs patients by tens of years, is that medicine or science? When they introduce GM genes into your marrow to change genetic faults - is that medicine or science?

Saving the lives of three million people a year seems to me to be good medicine, however it originates!

 

[British Red]

Your vitriol does not alter the fact that eliminating olive flies will not save a single life , it is nothing to do with medicine.

All this bile about "how dare people question science - we must eliminate mosquitos" has happened before you know. Indeed a Nobel prize was awarded for the insect killing properties of the wonder insect killer - called DDT. The environmental disaster was so huge as a result of that particular "scientific breakthrough" that a book (Silent Spring) was written about - and that book was a major stimulus to the environmental movement.

If it wasn't for people criticising science when it came to mosquito control, then we wouldn't have the Stockholm Convention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_Convention

To be critical of approaches - however much in scientific vogue - is a good thing - otherwise we would still be dumping 40,000 tonnes of DDT into the environment.

 

[rik_uk3]

If you read the whole article, you would'nt have to ask the question! However, to make it simpler for you, let me quote a couple of relevant paras.

" In the most recent trial in Brazil - in a town called Mandacaru - the company has reported a 96% reduction in the dengue mosquito (Aedes aegypti) population.

The scientists use almost identical technology in their fruit fly research, with the ultimate aim of rearing a female-killing strain of GM male flies".

If you cannot see the link between the two, and similarly don't understand how eliminating the anopheles mosquito (yes, I know the dengue-carrying mosquito is different to the anopheles mosquito, but the process for anopheles is similar, and engue fever itself is a major killer and spreading rapidly worlwide) will save three million lives a year, then there is no hope for you! You try to make a clear distinction between medicine and science (in this case GM research and application), without understanding that the two are closely intertwined. You wouldn't have modern medicine without modern science. Are analytical machines medicine? When they are analysing your blood for problems, or scanning your body for issues, is that medicine or science? When - following years of scientific research in the lab - drug companies come up with new drugs that - for example - extend the lives of AIDs patients by tens of years, is that medicine or science? When they introduce GM genes into your marrow to change genetic faults - is that medicine or science?

Saving the lives of three million people a year seems to me to be good medicine, however it originates!

Your peeing into the wind mate

 

[presterjohn]

I don't have problems with GM food or insects. I think they could end up being what keeps us alive in the centuries to come. What I do worry about is studies that are not favourable to certain endevours being buried. All testing should be open and peer reviewed. Cherry picking results causes no end of problems. I am also very much against the idea of seeds being patented to the point that it is illegal to use the seeds from plants that you have purchased and grown.

 

[santaman2000]

I don't have problems with GM food or insects. I think they could end up being what keeps us alive in the centuries to come. What I do worry about is studies that are not favourable to certain endevours being buried. All testing should be open and peer reviewed. Cherry picking results causes no end of problems. I am also very much against the idea of seeds being patented to the point that it is illegal to use the seeds from plants that you have purchased and grown.

Perfectly said! Thank you.

 

[Andy BB]

Your vitriol does not alter the fact that eliminating olive flies will not save a single life , it is nothing to do with medicine.

All this bile about "how dare people question science - we must eliminate mosquitos" has happened before you know. Indeed a Nobel prize was awarded for the insect killing properties of the wonder insect killer - called DDT. The environmental disaster was so huge as a result of that particular "scientific breakthrough" that a book (Silent Spring) was written about - and that book was a major stimulus to the environmental movement.

If it wasn't for people criticising science when it came to mosquito control, then we wouldn't have the Stockholm Convention.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockholm_Convention

To be critical of approaches - however much in scientific vogue - is a good thing - otherwise we would still be dumping 40,000 tonnes of DDT into the environment.

Vitriol? Nah - just disagreeing with you, and pointing out the link between fruit flies and mosquitos you are clearly still missing!

As for the banning of DDT, there are two sides to the story In some places where DDT had massively reduced the anopheles population, and brought about the huge decrease in malarial incidents, the banning of it reversed the situation, with the concommitant major rise in deaths. Save the planet, kill the people?

As to the "it has nothing to do with medicine" rant - OMG (as my kids used to say!). To me, the potential to save 3 million lives a year by genetic manipulation of the anopheles mosquito is pretty big medicine, however it is derived!

 

[British Red]

You still don't get it Andy - the trial being conducted in Europe is not on mosquitos - its on a commercial pest. The trial has nothing to do with dengue fever, it has to do with olive oil. There is no potential to save lives from the trial being conducted in Europe. They are, already, conducting trials on mosquitos in Brazil - the trial on olive flies will not advance the mosquito research one jot.

If anyone needs to read the article properly, its you, but let me point out the salient parts for you

A UK biotechnology company has
applied for permission to carry out the first field trial in Europe of a
genetically modified insect.

If it receives approval, the company, Oxitec, will carry out a small-scale test of
GM olive flies in Spain.

Olives are an important commercial crop in Europe; olive groves account for
about five million hectares in the EU. And, according to Oxitec, the olive
industry in Greece spends approximately 35 million euros (£30m) annually on
insecticides to control olive flies - to prevent an estimated loss to the
industry of 650 million euros.

In Brazil, Oxitec and its collaborators are trialling genetically modified
mosquitoes - releasing males with the killer gene in

So, the trials on mosquitos are already happening - the trial on olive flies are not a necessary part of that research, it is a purely commercial offshoot.

So again how does a trial on olive flies save lives??

 

[Andy BB]

If you don't understand

" In the most recent trial in Brazil - in a town called Mandacaru - the company has reported a 96% reduction in the dengue mosquito (Aedes aegypti) population.

The scientists use almost identical technology in their fruit fly research, with the ultimate aim of rearing a female-killing strain of GM male flies".

There's not much else I can do to make you understand..................

I notice you sashayed past the DDT argument - probably sensible.

 

[British Red]

The DDT argument has been made by the scientific community Andy - although I am happy to hear why you disagree with the Stockholm convention. You clearly have not read that document as you say

In some places where DDT had massively reduced the anopheles population, and brought about the huge decrease in malarial incidents, the banning of it reversed the situation, with the concommitant major rise in deaths

The Stockholm convention explicitly permits the use of otherwise controlled chemicals to control malarial mosquitos - where it can be shown to be effective in doing so - so your argument holds no scientific water.

Clearly there is nothing you can do to make me understand why Europe should permit the release of genetically modified fly where that release is not relevant to malaria control. The mosquito trial will continue without the release of olive flies - indeed trials on mosquitos are already happening, so trials on a different species are irrelevant.

You seem to be advancing an argument that the olive fly research is part of the mosquito research - it patently is not. The olive fly research is a commercial harnessing of similar genetic modification, but it is neither relevant nor necessary to the mosquito research.

 

[Dano]

I read somewhere that malaria has killed half the people that have ever lived, I wonder how more crowded the planet would be if there was no malaria, is this not a natural control?

Sorry to deviate from the original thread, how do they kill the female? Can they kill anything else? What's the impact on other animal who use them as food? How will it effect the economic balance?


Dano

 

[Dave-the-rave]

So they're creating sexist flies? That aint right. :sulkoff:

 

[petrochemicals]

I don't have problems with GM food or insects. I think they could end up being what keeps us alive in the centuries to come. What I do worry about is studies that are not favourable to certain endevours being buried. All testing should be open and peer reviewed. Cherry picking results causes no end of problems. I am also very much against the idea of seeds being patented to the point that it is illegal to use the seeds from plants that you have purchased and grown.

gm crops produce huge ammounts of natural insectiside chemicals possibly carcinagenic that we are then supposed to eat? They never state usually how the resistant qualities function. Gm soya has huge levels of oestrogen, seriously. And why not bring back agent orange while your at it.

 

[mountainm]

We do know that GM'ing is no different to selective breeding? It's just much much quicker. We've been carefully producing our own strains of crops and animals for donkeys years through selective breeding. I think that although there probably are very real scientific dangers it's more the restrictive licensing and monopolies that tie the farmers down that worry me.

 

[Two Socks]

We do know that GM'ing is no different to selective breeding? It's just much much quicker. We've been carefully producing our own strains of crops and animals for donkeys years through selective breeding. I think that although there probably are very real scientific dangers it's more the restrictive licensing and monopolies that tie the farmers down that worry me.

In a way this is true. We can induce the desired change quickly and know exactly what gene was altered to what effect. However, transgene crops are a different story. Selective breeding will never get artic fish genes into an apple tree. Fish don`t know that trick. That doesn`t mean that doing this is per definition bad though.

 

[Lister]

Have they not seen Black Swarm

 

[789987]

I read somewhere that malaria has killed half the people that have ever lived, I wonder how more crowded the planet would be if there was no malaria, is this not a natural control?




Dano

thats what i was thinking

 

[wingstoo]

Can someone show me when the last zombie apocalypse started please, I seem to have missed it in my history books...

As for wiping out a species... How many species have become extinct today?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/17/un-environment-programme-_n_684562.html

UN Environment Programme: 200 Species Extinct Every Day, Unlike Anything Since Dinosaurs Disappeared 65 Million Years Ago

Just thought I would add this for people to peruse, no inclination from myself, if you want to argue any points carry on, I don't have any problem with that.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1259

 

[wingstoo]

I like glow in the dark bunnies... easy to find at night if you leave the run open.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...n-the-dark-rabbits-created-by-scientists.html