Wild Foods and Clean Water

[Atellus]

Hello. I was watching what they call a "series stack" of Ray Mear's Wild Foods series
http://uktv.co.uk/documentary/episode/listing_id/67444665/channel_id/3844

The thought occured to me that he was using a lot of modern conveniences (including what looked like a rather nice set of le creuset pots! No Mesolithic campsite should be without them!) However, the thought then occured to me that this was justified as he was not focussing specifically on survival skills, although much of the information would obviously be of benefit in such a situation. It was justified in the sense that of all the arenas in which human innovation finds it's best expression, two stand out: warfare and cookery. Availing himself of modern tools and methods during the research and preparation of ancient diets could thus be seen as appropriate, although I thought he was really pushing it when he brought out his supermarket purchased cooking oil and sugar and so on when preparing dishes such as the sorrel tarts. Interesting and no doubt tasty, but mesolithic? Even slightly?

I was also wondering about water purification. I note that there are several threads on these forums about the subject, but they all seem to focus on chemical means using specialized equipment. Whilst I fully understand that one should never attempt to rely on alternative means for purification except as a last resort, I am interested to learn if there are any proven methods for purifying water using only natural materials, such as those that would come to hand in a survival situation. Mesolithic man didn't have a Millbank bag, so if he decided his local stream looked pretty rank and his gut flora were no longer up to the job, what means might he employ to strain and filter his water into a potable state?

Cheers

 

[Goose]

If I had to I would let the sediment settle out of the water then boil, both these methods would have been available and are as effective as other methods. Settlement(if needed) could take longer than filtering but boiling is boiling and is the probably the best method of purification even now. But would primitive peoples bother purifying water? We are (IMO) too sterile nowadays and have little resistance compared to our ancestors, do "primitive" peoples treat water nowadays? In a true wilderness would water treatment be really necessary? I would treat water if I was in a wilderness, being in that sort of location I don't think it would be appropriate to take any avoidable risk, but I would probably drink untreated wilderness water in a safer environment.

But doesn't Ray Mears practice bushcraft not survival? An important difference, I think

 

[Ahjno]

<snip>
But doesn't Ray Mears practice bushcraft not survival? An important difference, I think

What IS the difference??

 

[Wayland]

What IS the difference??

Oh no...Don't start that one again.......

 

[Matt Weir]

Survival = Get the hell out ASAP
Bushcraft = Chill the hell out ASAP

 

[Goose]

Survival = Get the hell out ASAP
Bushcraft = Chill the hell out ASAP

 

[Toddy]

Survival = Get the hell out ASAP
Bushcraft = Chill the hell out ASAP

Brilliant !

Cheers,
Toddy

 

[spamel]

A gypsy well would be an option, or dig a hole alongside the water source, a few meters away from the bank, to the water table, let it fill with water and then empty witha cup or ladle, let it refill. Keep doing this until the water is pretty clear, and then bung some dry grass in the top and ladle the water that seeps through. Collect and boil, drink and live!

Gathering water from a fast flowing part of the water source, where it is frothy and white as it tumbles over a rock for instance. There will be very little sediment, boil the water and drink. You'll be fine.

 

[-Switch-]

Hello. I was watching what they call a "series stack" of Ray Mear's Wild Foods series
http://uktv.co.uk/documentary/episode/listing_id/67444665/channel_id/3844

The thought occured to me that he was using a lot of modern conveniences (including what looked like a rather nice set of le creuset pots! No Mesolithic campsite should be without them!) However, the thought then occured to me that this was justified as he was not focussing specifically on survival skills, although much of the information would obviously be of benefit in such a situation. It was justified in the sense that of all the arenas in which human innovation finds it's best expression, two stand out: warfare and cookery. Availing himself of modern tools and methods during the research and preparation of ancient diets could thus be seen as appropriate, although I thought he was really pushing it when he brought out his supermarket purchased cooking oil and sugar and so on when preparing dishes such as the sorrel tarts. Interesting and no doubt tasty, but mesolithic? Even slightly?

I was also wondering about water purification. I note that there are several threads on these forums about the subject, but they all seem to focus on chemical means using specialized equipment. Whilst I fully understand that one should never attempt to rely on alternative means for purification except as a last resort, I am interested to learn if there are any proven methods for purifying water using only natural materials, such as those that would come to hand in a survival situation. Mesolithic man didn't have a Millbank bag, so if he decided his local stream looked pretty rank and his gut flora were no longer up to the job, what means might he employ to strain and filter his water into a potable state?

Cheers

How refreshing it is to see a new member with something intelligent to say, rather than just wanting to know where Ray Mears buys his pants.

Welcome to the forums, and keep posting questions like this

 

[spamel]

How refreshing it is to see a new member with something intelligent to say, rather than just wanting to know where Ray Mears buys his pants.

Oh no...Don't start that one again.......

'nuff said!

 

[Ogri the trog]

.... rather than just wanting to know where Ray Mears buys his pants.

Perhaps it would be beneficial for the entire forum to know - so that those who want to copy his every breath, can - and those who don't, can avoid buying similar items unknowingly!
As to the water question, Primative peoples are unlikely to know about the organisms that cause health problems. My guess is that by painfull experience, the tribe would soon learn where the "bad" water was, and avoid it!

Ogri the trog

 

[Ahjno]

<snip>
Mesolithic man didn't have a Millbank bag, so if he decided his local stream looked pretty rank and his gut flora were no longer up to the job, what means might he employ to strain and filter his water into a potable state?

I thought I had a newspaper article about the seeds of the Moringa oleifera (sp?) - a tropical tree or plant having purifying properties (as in killing harmfull bacteria, etc.). Can't find the article, but I remember the London School of <something> was quoted on having discovered these properties. The article is at least 8 years old, if not older ...

Couldn't find more info about it back then (and actually forgotten about it, untill today)

Although not a quite satisfying answer on your question, it could be usefull (if it's all true).

Oh no...Don't start that one again.......

Thought we didn't got to a satisfying answer

 

[-Switch-]

'nuff said!

Perhaps it would have been more appropriate for me to send my welcome via PM
I sometimes forget how a little statement like the one I posted can allow a thread to get way out of hand.

S0rry for taking your thread in a wayward direction Atellus.

Getting back on-topic...

I am of the same opinion as Goose, in that I think modern people have become less immune to the bacteria found in natural water - the more we shelter ourselves from disease, the less immune we are to it.
And lets also not forget that primitive man would not have had to deal with modern pollutants, and the bacteria 'breeding grounds' that they create.
Also primitive man may not have realised that water needed purifying and filtering before drinking. Alot of them died at what we regard to be an early age because they didn't have the medical knowledge that we are now lucky enough to have access to. They may not have seen this as a problem to be addressed, more as just a part of life.

So as an answer to your question - I personally don't think primitive man may have filtered or boiled his water with the intention of cleaning it as he may not have seen it as a necessary thing to do.

 

[xylaria]

Mesolithic man by definition wouldn't have farm land given over to livestock contaminating the water. They also had a much smaller human population as well. So generally there is less vectors in the Mesolithic. There is herbal treatments for bacterial and amoebic dysentery, the artemisia family has global distribution and is used through out the world for amoebic infections. If Mesolithic man could make tea then he capable of treating and avoiding infections. But because he lived so directly with his environment he probably had a better primed immune system against it.

I have thought maybe it would be good if a series was done with RM in ancient kit. It is a hard trying to listen to man talking about elegant primitive solutions if you know he has a 2.8k rolex watch and &#163;120 wellies . I have thought of wearing a leinne and brat (linen undershirt wool robe) to bush meet one time, because I am convinced as kit it is as comfy as modern kit, but I am put off the idea because I would look like a twit from the 5th century.

 

[Toddy]

I agree with the comments about immune systems, human population numbers and animal husbandry. I also know that the majority of babies ever born died before they were five years old simply from gastro intestinal infections.
Early settlements used wild water, the rain or fast flowing burns or brewed small ale. It doesn't need very much alcohol to sterilise a lot of water. 2&#37; alcohol iirc.....there's been a thread on this, I'll see if I can find it.
Nowadays, filter as best you can and then brew up

cheers,
Toddy

Found it;
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8624&highlight=whisky

 

[Tengu]

RM in ancient kit...just think what that would do to fashion....

Ill stick to jeans and my plaid cloak....I know there timeless.

 

[Toddy]

Linen sark and woollen arisaid
There'a group of us up here who are going to do an entire camp wearing traditional clothing......why not? it's practical, comfortable, ideal bushcraft kit.......besides the menfolk look really great in plaids

cheers,
Toddy

 

[xylaria]

Linen sark and woollen arisaid
There'a group of us up here who are going to do an entire camp wearing traditional clothing......why not? it's practical, comfortable, ideal bushcraft kit.......besides the menfolk look really great in plaids

cheers,
Toddy

Totally agree, I done camping in wool with cotton undershirt, the wool almost fire proof and you can fan a fire with it. arranged correctly the wool is almost weather proof. You get damp and heavy, but the wind chill is alliminated by the wool. There was a program a few years ago where a group lived in round houses for a year the only thing they missed was wellies. They didn't go hungry or cold.

When you think of the climate of scotish winter and they regulary went to iceland in open boats wearing that kit. The first white guy to get up everest did it wearing tweed. Yes it is heaver but even when it is ripped, burned, it doesn't fail as badly as modern fibres.

Toddy,What are you going wear on your feet?

RM in a great kilt

 

[Atellus]

S0rry for taking your thread in a wayward direction Atellus.

Getting back on-topic...

I am of the same opinion as Goose, in that I think modern people have become less immune to the bacteria found in natural water - the more we shelter ourselves from disease, the less immune we are to it.

No problem. I frequently forget to pack my compass, but often find that this results in discoveries I would not have otherwise made had I kept to the path most trodden ;-)

As the holder of a fairly broad-based undergraduate Honours degree in Biology, I feel compelled to comment on the state of herd immunity in modern, domestic populations of Homo sapiens. Medical opinion is currently that, yes, far too many people are far too susceptible to far too many pathogenic micro-organisms. Reasons are many. Mostly it comes down to upbringing and sometimes diet. Asthma, for instance, is increasing at alarming rates. In some areas almost logarithmically! Not, I noted from the statistics, in the more rural areas but mostly in developed areas enjoying greater concentrations of airborne pollutants. That said, we no longer live in the days of pea-souper smogs the like of which still grace the skylines of Los Angeles and Singapore and Beijing. So, what other cause might there be? Well, in more built up areas I would suggest that there is far greater access to cleaning agents, some of which are quite vicious. There might possibly also be less cultural tolerance of "dirt", in the sense of the old saying "you'll eat a peck of dirt afore ye die." Certainly, cultural attitudes to the perception of dirt and hygiene must vary between those of your average born and bred "townie" who plods the concrete streets for most of his life, and those of your born and bred rural villager who plods through two or three cow pats on his way to work each morning. I generalise in the most horrible fashion, but I do so to make a point.

Statistically, children raised in the presence of dogs are less likely to develop respiratory problems in later life. Horrible, dirty, pestilent beasts, but they're good for the soul and, it turns out, the immune system! Statistically, a great many teenagers will experience some form of asthma in their early to mid-teens anyway, even if you raise them in a dog kennels just over the road from a sewege treatment plant. In the vast majority of cases this asthma is transitory and they essentially "grow out of it".

I could waffle on for hours, recalling lecture after lecture and regurgitating my essays and papers, but that's for another forum, I think. Suffice to say that, whilst it is true that we are probably too aseptic a society, in this as in all things there must be a balance. We still need to keep clean, and societal health as a whole has never been better! Witness the fact that cardiac diseases are now the biggest killers in the developed world. Yes, often because we eat crap between two slices of ersatz bread at a local fast food outlet and suck it down with a long fag afterwards, but that's a far cry from parents watching 2 out of every 3 of their children dying before their twelfth birthday from a hundred diseases and conditions which are all now either treatable, or can be vaccinated against.

Dirt is good for you... in measured doses. Would you believe that arsenic is good for you? In measured doses. In large doses everything is a poison. A man with a mental problem once killed himself by drinking too much milk! If you eat 8,000 oranges, the accumulation of pesticides in your system will kill you, but the overdose of calcium from the first few hundred oranges would already have shut down your renal system and killed you quite horribly. That's why, when I wash fruit I've picked out of the fruit bowl, I'm only doing so to remove house dust and freshen the flavour of that first bite. I'm not trying to protect myself from a chemical formulation that is probably present in far higher quantities in the fabric of my 3 piece suite!

Let us all give daily thanks that we are so unbelievably, staggeringly fortunate to live in the first era in human history when the common cold is not a death sentence for you, your friends and your whole family; in which a "touch" of diarrhoea does not mean a grisly end as one of thousands of victims of a cholera epidemic; in which you can have peritoneal surgery for everything from an appendectomy to a caesarian birth without it being almost absolutely certain that if you didn't die from the shock, you would definately die, horribly and painfully, from peritonitis.

End of lecture ;-)

 

[Greg]

There was a program a few years ago where a group lived in round houses for a year the only thing they missed was wellies. They didn't go hungry or cold.

Yep your right it was a BBC show, and it was filmed at Castell Henllys Iron Age fort, Pembrokeshire.
Right on my doorstep. Its a fascinating site to visit.

http://www.castellhenllys.com/