Wild camping petition

[Nagual]

It's a shame that many people feel that the legislation of such a pastime would result in so much mayhem and disorder. Scotland is lucky, but is not without some problems with regards to our Land Reform Act. There are a few disgruntled land owners who have complained and the various official bodies are looking into things, as it were. It may be that the land owners are just peeved in general, or it could be that the land was abused - I'm not certain of which it is.

As regards to whether or not there are now herds of Neds ( or chavs depending on which side of the border you're on ) are invading the countryside, at least in my experience the answer is no. The countryside is still quiet and full of fluffy sheep. I find that neds generally can't be bothered with the effort involved in going anywhere other than the post office, pub and perhaps dealer. Of course many of them can't even read, so don't know they are allowed out there..

Restrictions only effect those who choose to obey them. For example gangsters still carry knives or guns. In the same fashion those who litter will litter regardless if they are allowed to be in the land or not. However opening up the countryside to the population, if done in a sensible manor cannot be a bad thing.


Just mho, Nag.

 

[Lucyc]

I agree, I think people who are going to abuse the countryside are doing it already. I don't think it will get much worse - look at Dartmoor. Wild camping is expressly encouraged there, but so far I haven't heard of any mistreatment of it at all. I don't see why it should really be different anywhere else..

 

[Bogman10]

I think that this could be both a good and a bad idea...and I'm not sure whether to sign it or not. For responsible folk (like I hope most of BCUK are) it sounds a great idea, but it could wreck the sites and the goodwill that responsible people have built up on their 'permissions' if idiots get on there.

Maybe (as I think has been suggested elsewhere) such a suggestion should go alongside a permit system so that you can only wild camp with a paid permit so that if people behave irresponsibly they can be banned. Payment for a wild camping permit should go to funding some sort of 'enforcement' group to help manage wild camping and not into government coffers.


Geoff

I agree with most of your points. Here in Alberta, Canada we are allowed to camp / hunt / fish /Quad on "Crown Land" ( land owned by the Province ).
This is great as it is ours, the tax payers and residents.
Last year, I believe Queen E's day long weekend, on some crown land, a group of teenagers ( Unfair to call them that, should be called "Idiots") Totally trashed the area !
Garbage everywhere ! The land Ripped up from Vehicles , to the point of a creek being damed and other serious damage.
This is an action that painted a lot of young outdoors people under an ugly light, and it had some Grazing lease owners ( pay to keep there livestock there to graze, but cannot deny access to outdoors people, if permission is asked in advance. ) Trying to have Crown land Camping Banned!!!! So the idiotic antics of a few Boneheaded careless losers, can affect the people who love and respect the land.
Just though I would share some of our experiences.


I am a little passionate about this !

 

[Toadflax]

Reading the details of the petition, which doesn't really give much detail of the proposal

"Currently without the landowners concent (sic) it is illegal to wild camp on the moors, mountains, National Parks and MOD land. It is time to give people the same rights as those given North of the Border in Scotland to allow them to wild camp in these places without threat of legal action."

it does look as though the request is for camping on what might be regarded as 'wild' land - i.e. those people (which does NOT include myself) who have persuaded landowners (e.g. farmers with a bit of woodland) to let them use their land should be unaffected.

After reading some of the comments on this thread, I'm more inclined to sign the petition, apart from the fact that I don't think there is any suitable land near me.


Geoff

 

[demographic]

The point is that the people who do it right are never noticed and theres a lot who can do it right, the odd one that gets it wrong gets to knacker it up for everyone?
We are prepared to let a massive oportunity to slip past us just because theres a few people out there that need a little more education, what happened to giving them a helping hand so they can enjoy things from the perspective of someone who doesn't damage things.

B*****ks to that, I want the same rights as the people in Scotland and if I remember right Sweden.

I'm signing it and to be completley honest am slightly dissapointed that theres so many that are happy with the current situation.

You get a small chance to change things and are so busy condemming a few daft people that you miss the huge amount of people that are capable of doing it better just because those who are doing it better manage to leave no trace.
Education, not condemnation is whats needed here IMO.

Of course its OK for the good people on here to wild camp but lets not have anyone else given the chance eh?

You don't seriously think that some poxy park ranger makes the slightest bit of difference to the bad ones anyway do you?
Signed.

Meh.

 

[Lucyc]

The point is that the people who do it right are never noticed and theres a lot who can do it right, the odd one that gets it wrong gets to knacker it up for everyone?
We are prepared to let a massive oportunity to slip past us just because theres a few people out there that need a little more education, what happened to giving them a helping hand so they can enjoy things from the perspective of someone who doesn't damage things.

B*****ks to that, I want the same rights as the people in Scotland and if I remember right Sweden.

I'm signing it and to be completley honest am slightly dissapointed that theres so many that are happy with the current situation.

You get a small chance to change things and are so busy condemming a few daft people that you miss the huge amount of people that are capable of doing it better just because those who are doing it better manage to leave no trace.
Education, not condemnation is whats needed here IMO.

Of course its OK for the good people on here to wild camp but lets not have anyone else given the chance eh?

You don't seriously think that some poxy park ranger makes the slightest bit of difference to the bad ones anyway do you?
Signed.

Meh.

Here here! I think knowledge of the petition needs to be spread, too, so it will actually get noticed..

 

[bikething]

.. - look at Dartmoor. Wild camping is expressly encouraged there, but so far I haven't heard of any mistreatment of it at all. ....

We get it down here too... usually near the car parks so the eedjits don't have to walk far from their chavmobiles..... in fact there was a fire of some sort near burrator dam 2 nights ago with 2 fire engines in attendance...

 

[Toadflax]

I'm signing it and to be completley honest am slightly dissapointed that theres so many that are happy with the current situation.

I have just read all the postings again, and I don't think that anyone has said that they are happy with the current situation, but just because you are not happy with a situation does not necessarily mean that change will be for the better.

I want the same rights as the people in Scotland and if I remember right Sweden.

I'd like to have the same rights, but (and I am happy to be corrected on this) I believe that England has a much higher population density and a far smaller area of 'wild land' than either Scotland or Sweden. Draw your own conclusions on this.

Of course its OK for the good people on here to wild camp but lets not have anyone else given the chance eh?

Again, I don't think anyone has said this. I'm sure that there are many people who don't know about BCUK who would be responsible campers. What people seem to be concerned with is the abuses that might arise from free access, and how such abuse would be managed.


Having apparently gone against what demographic has said, I do agree with some of his points and, after considering all the postings (a good democratic discussion so far), I am more inclined to give the petition my support.


Geoff

 

[hedgepig]

B*****ks to that, I want the same rights as the people in Scotland ...

I for one, was not condemning anyone, I think that people should have the opportunity to enjoy being close to the land, to understand it, to understand how we depend on it and need to respect it.

We all espouse "leaving no trace", but part of that is allowing the light footprints we do leave on the land to recover before the next person uses that patch. What happens when the land is constantly in use? What happens when the damage just a few people leave takes a long time to recover?

I quoted your comment about Scotland for a reason - the right to access land in Scotland is under threat. Why? The damage to the land around Loch Lomond is significant. People aren't demonstrating respect for the land and the longer they continue in this behaviour, the more the case grows to limit peoples access to the land. If England and Wales are opened up on the same lines and the same destructive attitude is displayed then it won't be long before the landed gentry get any access rights reversed.

Should people be able to enjoy the land? Yes.
Should they have the responsibility to take care of the land land? Yes.

If they don't show the responsibility then they won't get the first.

So the question is - how do people learn responsibility? Well without getting political, they are going to have to stop thinking about "my right to..." and start thinking about "my responsibility to..."

 

[British Red]

I think theres a big difference between publicly own land and privately own land. To me, privately own land is just that - private. Much "wild" land is rough grazing on which people eke a precarious existence. Much woodland is used as game bird covers, sustainable forestry etc. A lot of this land supports beleagured farms and farmers. I don't think that it would be fair for their grazing animals to be frightened away from some areas due to noise, light or fires. Or for carefully reared and released game birds to be scared away from woods. Or fires lit in woods that someone has been carefully managed for decades where one out of control fire could devastate a livelihood.

So Wild camping with some aprropriate remuneration / compensation to the land owners to ensure they are not left out of pocket. With an opt out clause. Sure? Why not? Yes we would have to pay some tax for it, but it would be a small amount - and it would pay for clean ups, compensation for damage etc.

However all take and no give isn't fair so I wouldn't be in favour. So if we want to make it to everyones benefit to open up land to wild camping - so no-one loses out - it'll get my vote.

But a logic of wanting to use someone elses property, with no compensation even if its damaged can't be right. So lets have a properly thought through proposal which is "win / win". That might even help a few rural dwellers and make them feel welcoming not abused

Red

 

[Lucyc]

To be fair, the petition says just for moors, mountains, National Parks and MOD land... Don't know if that makes a difference, but at least it wouldn't be on most farm land etc

 

[Tony]

you've described my thoughts, cheers Red.

We should have the opportunity to camp out in the wilds, I absolutely agree and want to be able to do that. I don't think it's right to expect all land to be available to whoever though and I do expect there to be some form of expecting responsible behaviour from people. If there's not this will swing the other way and land will be closed off even tighter than it is now, it would end up being great for a few years and then we'd have less freedom than we do now because land owners would be able to prove that land is abused.

It's not a case of judging people, it's a case of fact, lots of people are fantastic, some are not, some do not even know how to deal with being in the wilderness, not their fault but it's a fact. It's all very well saying everyone should have access to land, I just think the land has to be clarified. As I said in my earlier post, it would be great to have some designated huge areas that we could use, there's a few about, and then everyone would know where they stand.

 

[Tony]

To be fair, the petition says just for moors, mountains, National Parks and MOD land... Don't know if that makes a difference, but at least it wouldn't be on most farm land etc

That does make a big difference, there's land in that list that can be used well and covers all the wild campers needs, it gets difficult when people tell the farmer he's got no right to stop you going on his land. I wonder if forestry comes into the parks, mod land etc? There's lots of hassle about fires and there's usually very little chance of them happening in our woodlands (some planted woodlands an exception I know)

 

[Nightwalker]

I signed it.

I believe the type of person who would camp then leave the landscape scarred and in a state, would not be the type of person who would be bothered about the intricacies of a wild-camping Act. I honestly don't think it would greatly increase the amount of crappy sites left by imbeciles. Yes, we have to many of these incidents as it is, but people without thought and care will just be out there camping anyway leaving their crap. Having a wild-camping act may infact get more responsible folk out more regular, allowing those who actually care about laws, rules and nature to do more.

 

[Lostdreamer]

My tuppence?

It's an online petition. It isn't worth the paper it is written on.

You want the law changed? You want the right to camp on Access Land? (which is what most of the land you are refering to is). Well then:

Talk to your MP
Write to your MP
Write to the newspapers.
Get actual walking, talking supporters. Lots of 'em.
Get an actual organised campain going.

You have a right to your opinion, and you have a right to express it. Nobody else can do this for you.
But if all you do is mutter under your breath 'wouldn't this be a good idea' from the comfort of your sofa, then nothing will change and you will have wasted your breath.

 

[Tony]

I signed it.

I believe the type of person who would camp then leave the landscape scarred and in a state, would not be the type of person who would be bothered about the intricacies of a wild-camping Act. I honestly don't think it would greatly increase the amount of crappy sites left by imbeciles. Yes, we have to many of these incidents as it is, but people without thought and care will just be out there camping anyway leaving their crap. Having a wild-camping act may infact get more responsible folk out more regular, allowing those who actually care about laws, rules and nature to do more.

Yeah, good point.

I suppose the bottom line is that we'll never know how it's going to turn out till it turns out...if that makes sense

Lostdreamer, I think you're right as well, more proactivity needed, although I think the problem there is defining what you're actually asking for other than "I want to go wherever I want and no one can stop me" Which I suppose will never happen anyway.

You want the law changed? You want the right to camp on Access Land? (which is what most of the land you are refering to is). Well then:

Talk to your MP
Write to your MP
Write to the newspapers.
Get actual walking, talking supporters. Lots of 'em.
Get an actual organised campain going.

You have a right to your opinion, and you have a right to express it. Nobody else can do this for you.
But if all you do is mutter under your breath 'wouldn't this be a good idea' from the comfort of your sofa, then nothing will change and you will have wasted your breath.

 

[British Red]

To be fair, the petition says just for moors, mountains, National Parks and MOD land... Don't know if that makes a difference, but at least it wouldn't be on most farm land etc

Don't forget though that many moors, mountains and plenty of national parks are farmed. Hill farmers struggle to scrape a living on poor grazing on morrs and mountains. Most National Parks are still privately owned land. I'm not against the idea of wider access - I just prefer the thought thats its fair to all including the current landowners - especially the small farmers and those who are living on a far lower hourly rate of pay than almost any employed person.

Red

 

[JohnL]

Maybe they should allow wild camping, but only if more than 2 miles away from the nearest car park/road access. Not many people who dont know anything about camping will walk this far with their bottles of beer & disposable tents.
It hurt me to say this but I don't think allowing all to go wild camping is the key.
People say it works in scotland, & it does to a certain extent. When I lived in scotland the hills where just about litter free, but this was only because accses to them was very bad. There where a few mountain bothies in the hills & these where regualy trashed. The one time I stayed in one there where about 8 other guys staying. They got really drunk, one threw up all over the floor, & in the morning I saw one of them had had a crap right outside the bothy door, & left loads of used toilet paper strewn everywhere. I was only 12 at the time & now 5 years later I have never stayed in a bothy again.:BlueTeamE

 

[Lostdreamer]

I think the problem there is defining what you're actually asking for.

Right ho. Time for a cup o' tea, and some googling.

Well, according to the petition we are asking for:

Currently without the landowners concent it is illegal to wild camp on the moors, mountains, National Parks and MOD land. It is time to give people the same rights as those given North of the Border in Scotland to allow them to wild camp in these places without threat of legal action.

That sounds very much like Access Land to me, so my next stop was to swat up on it here:
www.countrysideaccess.gov.uk/things_to_do/open_access
The following is the bare minium of what I thought relevant, there is plenty more information on the site for people to read.

According to the Countryside & Rights of Way Act 2000 (which came into force 19 sept 2004)
Access land includes:
a. land mapped in conclusive form as open country.

And it defines 'open country' as:

all land that is wholly or predominantly mountain, moor, heath or down.

Bingo! That sounds like a good starting point. Permission to 'wild camp' on Access Land it is then. This is handy, as it neatly circumvents any issue about if we are allowed there in the first place. (remember you ain't allowed to leave a ROW). It is interesting to note as an aside that the original petitioner makes no mention of themselves of Access Land, or of 'right to roam' as it is often interpreted.

Unfortunately:

The following list summarises key activities that are expressly excluded from the new rights of access.
Camping

Bother. Not only are we not allowed to camp, it is expressly forbidden in the act itself!

This is quite recent legislation however, and presumably the problem predates this.
However, after a quick google on both “England Vagrancy” & “Wild Camping England”, I am none the wiser.

Is there anyone on this forum who can point me/us in the right direction? Is it rooted in vagrancy/trespass law, or is there more too it than that?

TTFN
LD

 

[Hedgehog]

Sadly like many here I have found the remains of badly kept camps & can only see this making things worse.

A premit scheme would encourage responsible behavior & could maybe work.