Why guns should not be carried in the wilderness!!

[PaulSanderson]

I agree with both sides of the argument here. I think in the UK we do have a very blase and naive attitude towards "vermin" or animals/plants that pose a threat, simply because we have very few like that. If swans were attacking children every time we went for a walk in the park then i guess we would either avoid the park, shoot the swans or relocate them. I guess if you're constantly having to relocate, and the risk to family etc is still there, then killing is a better solution. Other plants and animals in the wild to it to other dangerous or invasive species, and we're all part of the food chain to something...HOWEVER, that being said, i feel to pose with your "quarry" is nothing short of macabre to be honest...i guess maybe it makes him feel like a man...

...shoot for food or protection, don't pose with it...its not big or clever in my opinion.

 

[Retired Member southey]

It is the advent of the super beings that have made the use of automatic weapons in the wild a necessity, such as the flying fish/squirrel (same animal, different suits). and let us not forget the honey badger, after the creation of the animal passport these evil and secretive creatures have been travelling more frequently on our rail system, travelling long distances to cough at cows and then blaming the local population of spreading TB in order to claim there sets, as we all know the field margins are the new must have property locations and it is the dream of all honey badgers to appear on grand designs, where they will attempt to reek there terrible revenge on Kevin Mc Cloud of the clan Mc Cloud as there Can BE ONLY ONE!

 

[santaman2000]

Don't even get me started on rattlesnake round-ups as being a good thing. The are treated as inhumanely as it is possible for an animal to be and that's just during collection which uses petrol squirted indisciminately down any burrow or crevice. Skinned alive and used as toys by people to prove their manliness. And a vast amount of the meat gets thrown out as mutilated corpses. It has no place in a modern society. And yes, I have witnessed this first hand at three different venues, and the most recent was 2007 where the practice had gotten even more inhumane since my first experience back in the early Nineties. The majority of people are not doing it to keep populations down to protect children and livestock. Most animals are collected in wilderness areas far far away from human habitation and there is a culture of actual hate going on, where the more they are mistreated, the more enjoyment is had by most. Utterly disgusting.

Don't know of anybody skinning one while it's alive. Usually the head is cut off first for safety. No, the roundups aren't always about population control. They are a festive way to harvest a natural resourse. A resourse that yes we do fervently hate and therefore yes there is a celebratory atnosphere when one is killed. As to the reference about a "modern Society", that's a big part of the point. We really don't want to be a "modern" society. That's not meant to be aggressive as has been suggested but as someone else stated earlier, yes, we do have a different guidebook regarding bushcraft. Our usual definition is to come as close as possible to the early mountain men who trapped fur bearers all winter to sell on the Eastern market. Many still run traplines for this purpose. Another popular ideal is to emulate the American Indians. Both sets of people really had a disdain for what we would call "Civilized."

 

[santaman2000]

No, they don't. Death from snakebite is rare. The best info I could find (most pessimistic) listed about 8000 bites per year, and 1 in 500 of those dying. It said roughly 10 deaths per year. That's in a country of 150m people. I bet more die from falling off horses (actually, checking I found that over 200 die per year from horseriding). Better shoot those horses on sight!

As I said earlier, I grew up in a country with lots of lethally-venomous snakes. I never met a single person who had actually been bitten, and can't recall hearing of a single death.

I have to PARTIALLY agree with you on this point. I say partially because the vast majority of that 150m population live in urban areas where there is little if any contact. However even in the rural areas there are surprisingly few actual bites. That said I will always have a deep seated wish to see them extinct. It didn't help when I was stationed in the Nevada desert where sidewinders (a type of rattlesnake) would often be curled around the landing gear waiting for me or somebody else to crawl under the jet to work.

Ironiclay as far as being a large scale threat, the most most dangerous snakes in the US right now are exotic invasive species such as the constrictors. Pythons and Boas that were originally bought as pets have established a wild, breeding and growing presence in south and middle Florida and are expanding their range northward. It's believed that most escaped captivity during the hurricanes that swept the state about a decade ago. Fish and Wildlife Commission discovered one dead constrictor in the Everglades a couple of years ago that had eaten an alligator then died when the gator struggled enough to burst the snake apart. Last year (I think it was last year anyway) a pet python killed an infant when it got loose from it's enclosure. Keeping and import of constrictors is now banned in Florida but I'm afraid the damage is already done. Current efforts to eradicate the wild population isn't keeping up with their breeding.

 

[JonathanD]

Don't know of anybody skinning one while it's alive. Usually the head is cut off first for safety. No, the roundups aren't always about population control. They are a festive way to harvest a natural resourse. A resourse that yes we do fervently hate and therefore yes there is a celebratory atnosphere when one is killed. As to the reference about a "modern Society", that's a big part of the point. We really don't want to be a "modern" society. That's not meant to be aggressive as has been suggested but as someone else stated earlier, yes, we do have a different guidebook regarding bushcraft. Our usual definition is to come as close as possible to the early mountain men who trapped fur bearers all winter to sell on the Eastern market. Many still run traplines for this purpose.

Nailed by the head to a board and then peeled whilst alive. It's a common occurence and witnessed dozens of times in one day. Harvesting a natural resource for food is one thing. But for entertainment with a huge amount of waste afterwards!!? This has nothing to do with food, skins or trade. This has nothing to do with tradition or tribal values and has no place in any society, modern or not. It's about barbarism and ignorance. Killing en masse for fun is frowned upon by most civilisations throughout history. It's not the fact that it's done, (even though that alone is pretty barbaric and sick in it's own right) but the way in which it is done.

 

[JonathanD]

It didn't help when I was stationed in the Nevada desert where sidewinders (a type of rattlesnake) would often be curled around the landing gear waiting for me or somebody else to crawl under the jet to work.

They don't wait under jets because they think some pesky human will come by. They were there for another, natural reason. They are animals like anything else, not consorts of the devil.

 

[PaulSanderson]

A resource that yes we do fervently hate and therefore yes there is a celebratory atmosphere when one is killed.

All seems a bit arrogant to me personally! To actually "hate" this "resource" and to "celebrate" the death of something that shares this earth with us is akin to being brainwashed...you said your usual definition is to come as close as possible to the early mountain men who trapped fur etc. Can i ask you a question? Do you think they celebrated the deaths/hated the creatures they caught and killed? or did they harvest a resource because it was needed and it made them money? just food for thought...

Like I said, kill for food or protection...

 

[Neumo]

No. This is the age old storey of the relationship between animals & the humans that own the land they live on. That is determined a wide range of things including local customs/traditions, laws which dictate the lanowners obligations, peoples upbringing etc... In this case it was about a large snake, that can kill people, living on some land that was in agricultural production; which means people will be there often, so it was not in some scrubland miles from anywhere. So I personally dont have a prioblem with it being killed in the way that it was. That does not mean that I condone the 'rattlesnake roundups' & other mass killings of animals which are often done more for reasons of entertainment, social ritual etc.. I view this as as an indevidual case where the decison was taken to get rid of the snake, which was particularly big & can kill people. That's how I think all cases should be dealt with; as an informed choice by the person who has to live with that decision. Mob rule type of reactions I dont agree with.

I was surprised at how few people do die of snake bits in the US, if the figures I have seen are correct. The trouble is that human deaths caused by some animals are treated as being far more dangerous than others. Take shark attacks, which are also statistically very rare but sharks scare a lot of people which is why they are often killed when they dont need to be.

My main objection to this thread is that this is yet another thread that is having a go at hunters by people who for the most part dont really know what they are talking about. There have been several of these recently which I see as little more than trolling, to be honest. If you have a go at us, then we will have a go back.

Another way to look at these anti-hunting threads is it is like discussing knives with people, if it comes up & you have the time... Most of us, as bushcrafters, own at least one knife & take it out of our hose from time to time, which means we should know about the law etc... Having one of these discussions about hunting with some people is like having an argument with someone about owning knives where you get arguments like: 'you own a knife, so you must want to kill someone', 'all knives are illeagal', 'you must be weird if you own a knife' etc... In other words from many people you just get a wall of blind prejudice, wrong information, no understanding of the law & get classified as standing with the very very few people who do match the sterotypes. Rant over...

 

[PaulSanderson]

My main objection to this thread is that this is yet another thread that is having a go at hunters by people who for the most part dont really know what they are talking about. There have been several of these recently which I see as little more than trolling, to be honest. If you have a go at us, then we will have a go back.

Sorry to disagree mate...but i dont think this is an us and them argument. I think for the most part, bushcrafters are an open minded bunch, who understand the need to hunt. I dont think this thread has turned into an anti-hunt campaign, merely the justification in why the animal was killed. No one is havin a pop at hunters, hell i do it myself, but i think the justification or the way it was comitted is the arguement. I can see both sides of the story myself and would probably be inclined to dispatch it if it was going to protect my family/livestock.

Lets keep this in context as I have notice too a number of anti-hunting threads on here lately...

 

[mrcharly]

The guy in the article wasn't a 'hunter'; he was a bloke in an orchard who disturbed an animal. The animal tried to get away, and the bloke shot it.

I think anyone who takes hunting seriously would object to being lumped in with a casual killer like that.

 

[wattsy]

No, they don't. Death from snakebite is rare. The best info I could find (most pessimistic) listed about 8000 bites per year, and 1 in 500 of those dying. It said roughly 10 deaths per year. That's in a country of 150m people.

in the 2010 US census the population was 308,745,538 so you're substantially off the mark there

Don't know of anybody skinning one while it's alive. Usually the head is cut off first for safety. No, the roundups aren't always about population control. They are a festive way to harvest a natural resourse. A resourse that yes we do fervently hate and therefore yes there is a celebratory atnosphere when one is killed. As to the reference about a "modern Society", that's a big part of the point. We really don't want to be a "modern" society. That's not meant to be aggressive as has been suggested but as someone else stated earlier, yes, we do have a different guidebook regarding bushcraft. Our usual definition is to come as close as possible to the early mountain men who trapped fur bearers all winter to sell on the Eastern market. Many still run traplines for this purpose. Another popular ideal is to emulate the American Indians. Both sets of people really had a disdain for what we would call "Civilized."

well thats a bloody good job because you sound like some of the most backward people on earth. 'emulate the american indians?' they at least had some respect for nature you wouldn't see them running around killing animals for the crack of it. bushcraft isn't supposed to be wandering around killing everything you can get for their jackets or for sport, that sounds to me like the highest form of idiocy. its not an infinite resource after all

 

[santaman2000]

Nailed by the head to a board and then peeled whilst alive. It's a common occurence and witnessed dozens of times in one day. Harvesting a natural resource for food is one thing. But for entertainment with a huge amount of waste afterwards!!? This has nothing to do with food, skins or trade. This has nothing to do with tradition or tribal values and has no place in any society, modern or not. It's about barbarism and ignorance. Killing en masse for fun is frowned upon by most civilisations throughout history. It's not the fact that it's done, (even though that alone is pretty barbaric and sick in it's own right) but the way in which it is done.

Now that you've described the method (nailing the head to a board) I'll partially concede that point. Partially because in actuality Nailing it through the head woul kill it not leave it alive. However a snake (like most reptiles here) can appear to be live because they will still spordically move (curling and uncurling) hours after death. Likewise when the head is cut off it is usually buried immediately as it continues to bite. That is also how catfish or cleaned; nail to a board and the skin pulled off.

You may be right about the "Tribal" values. but it definitely is a tradition. An annual event that's been going on for over a century and celebrated kinda makes the definition of "tradition."

 

[JonathanD]

in the 2010 US census the population was 308,745,538 so you're substantially off the mark there



well thats a bloody good job because you sound like some of the most backward people on earth. 'emulate the american indians?' they at least had some respect for nature you wouldn't see them running around killing animals for the crack of it. bushcraft isn't supposed to be wandering around killing everything you can get for their jackets or for sport, that sounds to me like the highest form of idiocy. its not an infinite resource after all

The irony is, in areas where these round ups are repeated year after year, the rattlesnakes seem to be evolving NOT to rattle anymore to give their presence away. This obviously makes them more dangerous to people and children now. Quite a few herpetologists are studying this phenomena, and the snakes within these areas are very reluctant to rattle, even when touched and moved. It seems Darwinism is in favour of the rattlers there. Kinda tells you something about the humans doesn't it

 

[JonathanD]

Now that you've described the method (nailing the head to a board) I'll partially concede that point. Partially because in actuality Nailing it through the head woul kill it not leave it alive.

Actually, that's not true. It's very difficult to kill a snake by stabbing it through the head with a thin object like a nail due to the way the brain and bone structure is situated.

 

[santaman2000]

in the 2010 US census the population was 308,745,538 so you're substantially off the mark there



well thats a bloody good job because you sound like some of the most backward people on earth. 'emulate the american indians?' they at least had some respect for nature you wouldn't see them running around killing animals for the crack of it. bushcraft isn't supposed to be wandering around killing everything you can get for their jackets or for sport, that sounds to me like the highest form of idiocy. its not an infinite resource after all

I haven't seen the 2010 census so you're probably right. I was just quoting the figure given by the poster to whom I was responding.

Actually many Indian nations (I won't use the word tribes) did kill for the fun of it. The Apache in particular relished torturing their quarry. As for it being a "finite" resourse I agree. Part of the point here is eradication, not population control. Remember from the point of view of a lifelong outdoorsman, "bushcraft" is not an aim in itself but a neccessary and enjoyable skill regarding the larger outdoor lifestyle.

As for being "some of the most backward" people on Earth"; I take that as a compliment. Thank you. No, that's not meant to be aggressive, just a frank admission that I don't have any desire to be "modern" or especially "civilized." I enjoy being a redneck. I'm proud of it.

 

[JonathanD]

Part of the point here is eradication, not population control.

What splendid people you are. You must look forward to that day when all snake species are extinct and the rodents are free to spread disease throughout the population and cause havoc to the crops unhindered. Darwinism indeed. Why don't you just nuke the arid unpopulated areas and then you will solve all the problems with animals and in a few decades it will be safe to tarmac and lay carpets down.

 

[santaman2000]

Actually, that's not true. It's very difficult to kill a snake by stabbing it through the head with a thin object like a nail due to the way the brain and bone structure is situated.

Possibly but the participants of the roundups are experienced and adept.

 

[santaman2000]

What splendid people you are. You must look forward to that day when all snake species are extinct and the rodents are free to spread disease throughout the population and cause havoc to the crops unhindered. Darwinism indeed. Why don't you just nuke the arid unpopulated areas and then you will solve all the problems with animals and in a few decades it will be safe to tarmac and lay carpets down.

No, not all snakes. But rattlers yes.

Regarding the Darwinism comment there's something we all tend to forget. Yes, man does damage the environment BUT! That's been the case throughout evolution. Certain species expand their range to the detriment of others. We're not even the only ones that deliberately change out environments. Beavers cut down trees and dam streams as just one example. Granted the scale we do it with is extaordinarily frightening but we too are a product of evolution.

 

[JonathanD]

Possibly but the participants of the roundups are experienced and adept.

Again, that's not true. The snakes I saw skinned and pinned were 100% alive. There was no skill or correct placement whatsoever, it was a case of banging it in anywhere quick and then ripping the skin off as quick as possible while laughing at the snake still being alive. I know the difference between a live and dead snake and correct placement of a nail to kill one. No one cared about killing it, it was all about suffering and the appeasement of a hate filled mob.

 

[JonathanD]

No, not all snakes. But rattlers yes.

Rattlers are eaten by other snake species, and other animal species too. On top of their control on rodents, their importance in the food chain and in maintaining the natural balance is huge.