Water source

[Thenihilist]

In my spot there are lots of ponds with lots of greater reedmace growing in them. One of them has lots of birches growing on it but there all dead which is worrying unless they were just drowned out, it's 100 metres from the nearest field but theres a forrestry commission road next to it thats used by a tractor sometimes.

The water isn't moving but theres stuff growing in it.

Even if i boil it how do i know if it's drinkable?

 

[tim_n]

In my spot there are lots of ponds with lots of greater reedmace growing in them. One of them has lots of birches growing on it but there all dead which is worrying unless they were just drowned out, it's 100 metres from the nearest field but theres a forrestry commission road next to it thats used by a tractor sometimes.

The water isn't moving but theres stuff growing in it.

Even if i boil it how do i know if it's drinkable?

Safe to drink or just drinkable? Boiling will only kill the parasites and bacteria, but won't remove chemicals.

I'm not an expert, but if you're in doubt, I wouldn't drink it. You could always make a solar still as that will leave any chemicals behind.

 

[shaggystu]

.....You could always make a solar still as that will leave any chemicals behind.

are you sure about that, it doesn't sound at all right to me. surely some chemicals are made by distillation aren't they? if you distilled water contaminated with chemicals that begin to evaporate at a lower temperature than water does then surely you'll be concentrating the chemicals. or do i completely mis-understand the science behind this?

stuart

 

[spandit]

...do i completely mis-understand the science behind this?

Yes

The still, solar or otherwise, basically boils the water off and collects/condenses the steam. What you are left with in your vessel is a concentrated mixture. If you were trying to make spirits then you'd keep this bit, if purifying water, you throw this bit away and drink the condensed steam

 

[blacktimberwolf]

Even if i boil it how do i know if it's drinkable?

You won't know & if there are arable fields around ( even 100+ metres away) the chances of it being contaminated with pesticides & nitrates are pretty high.

 

[shaggystu]

Yes

The still, solar or otherwise, basically boils the water off and collects/condenses the steam. What you are left with in your vessel is a concentrated mixture. If you were trying to make spirits then you'd keep this bit, if purifying water, you throw this bit away and drink the condensed steam

erm....that's how i thought a solar still works, i still don't understand how i'd use distillation to seperate out known liquid chemical compounds (water for example) from unknown liquid chemical compounds though. here's the scenario, i've got a bottle of clear liquid, i have no idea what's in it but i suspect that some of it might be water, i also have all the bits and bobs i need to make a solar still (plastic sheet, bit of tubing, small rock, hole in the ground etc). how do i get a drink?

i understand that a solar still works pretty well for removing salt from sea water but salt's a solid, i just don't understand how it could possibly remove other liquids such as pesticides

stuart

 

[Shewie]

One of the quarries where I go exploring has one of those pits that trucks drive through to get washed before hitting the road, god knows what chemicals there are in the water but for some reason Bullrushes thrive in there. At the end of summer the rushes are so thick that you can't see any water. I think the quarrying work came to an end about five years ago so traffic is only light now, there must be plenty of nasties still living in there.

I collect the heads occasionally for firelighting, in the pit they stink of wet dog, not sure about anywhere else or if that's even a clue at all. If I was you I'd be looking elsewhere, check maps for natural springs, caves and gorges etc.

 

[Graveworm]

erm....that's how i thought a solar still works, i still don't understand how i'd use distillation to seperate out known liquid chemical compounds (water for example) from unknown liquid chemical compounds though. here's the scenario, i've got a bottle of clear liquid, i have no idea what's in it but i suspect that some of it might be water, i also have all the bits and bobs i need to make a solar still (plastic sheet, bit of tubing, small rock, hole in the ground etc). how do i get a drink?

i understand that a solar still works pretty well for removing salt from sea water but salt's a solid, i just don't understand how it could possibly remove other liquids such as pesticides

stuart

It removes many liquids but not all (eg anti freeze from a radiator) it's to do with boiling points. Using one is always a disappointment though when compared to the diagram in the book, I hope you are not thirsty.

 

[shaggystu]

It removes many liquids but not all (eg anti freeze from a radiator) it's to do with boiling points. Using one is always a disappointment though when compared to the diagram in the book, I hope you are not thirsty.

that's exactly what i thought. so if you suspect that your water source is contaminated with unknown chemicals then distillation is no better a form of purification than boiling, either way you stand just as good a chance of concentrating the chemicals as you do of removing them

stuart

 

[tim_n]

In short, if you're not sure and it's not a survival situation, take bottled water. At the end of the day, a contaminated water source may make you loose more water than you gain. Given that you're in a field or wood with plenty of green stuff, either rain water or transpiration from gathered green stuff (like leaves/grass) ought to give you enough for emergencies, but drinking out of still ponds surrounded by dead trees doesn't sound like a great idea.

 

[udamiano]

to make water drinkable, if from an unknown source, then the water must be processed in a number of ways

1) larger particulate mater must be removed - this can be done simply by passing the water through a fine mesh ( a T-shirt, or if available fine sand)
2) Larger protozoa needs to be killed- this can be achieved in one of two ways a) chemical treatment of the water using something like aqua pure tablets or boiling for about 10 mins (personally I prefer boiling, as recent research has shown that some protozoa are quite resistant to the chemicals (Uni of Glasgow study of water borne threats for the world health organisation)
3) removal of chemical and heavy metals- This is more difficult as it requires something like activated charcoal with a fine mesh (20x50) in emergencies you can use charcoal from a fire However this is only going to be partially effective


Water has a lower boiling temperature that the more harmful Metals (Arsenic, Benzine,Lead, potassium) but is less than some compounds (Ethanol, petrochemicals etc)
however boiling water and allowing these lower temperature compounds to escape before condensing you stream back into water will remove most of these.

The general view really is that if you are in a situation where you are treating possible harmful water then, your body can sustain small amounts of these metals over short periods, BUT a better source should always be explored

Hope this helps

Day

 

[rik_uk3]

I'd invest in a water filter chap, or heat treat the water, no need to boil but get it above 80c, or bring to a rolling boil and turn off the heat to be on the safe side.

 

[udamiano]

I'd invest in a water filter chap, or heat treat the water, no need to boil but get it above 80c, or bring to a rolling boil and turn off the heat to be on the safe side.

true, but I assumed the question was a 'What if I didn't have a water filter..' type question

 

[shaggystu]

.......[/U]Water has a lower boiling temperature that the more harmful Metals (Arsenic, Benzine,Lead, potassium) but is less than some compounds (Ethanol, petrochemicals etc)....

that was my concern with the statement that "You could always make a solar still as that will leave any chemicals behind", especially the petrochemicals bit. in any area of farmland i fully expect all water to contain at least some level of chemical contamination, whether that be something that farmers have sprayed on their land/crops or run off from farm animals or fuel/oil spills from agricultural machinery, one way or another there's likely to be something in the water that i wouldn't choose to drink. and simply running that water through a solar still won't remove all of those chemicals

.......however boiling water and allowing these lower temperature compounds to escape before condensing you stream back into water will remove most of these......

so now we're talking fractional distillation (is that the correct term?), this makes much more sense to me as a way to seperate out different chemicals from a solution, i don't imagine it would be overly practicable without access to something resembling a laboratory though. at the very least i'd want some good containers, lots of tubing, a very reliable thermometer, and a huge stack of info re. evaporation points of all known chemical compounds (even then i'd have to consider the fact that however i set up the process there's going to be pressure involved as well as heat so the evaporation temperatures will all change), either that or that bloke with the earing and the cheeky grin from rough science, he'd knock up something with half a coconut and a plastic bottle that'd be producing hot and cold running water and 100 year old cognac before the rest of us had finished bickering about the best way to light the fire

stuart

 

[Thenihilist]

Think i'll just carry water in lol.

I might just ask the farmer, i have to walk through his farm to get there and i usually see him, to see if it's organic because i've seen slurry tankers but no fertilizer spreaders or sprayers, even if it is organic and slurry is sprayed unless the tanker is direct injection there will be slurry everywhere.

 

[shaggystu]

.....I might just ask the farmer, i have to walk through his farm to get there and i usually see him......

just ask him if he's got an outside tap you can use!

stuart

 

[udamiano]

so now we're talking fractional distillation (is that the correct term?), this makes much more sense to me as a way to seperate out different chemicals from a solution, i don't imagine it would be overly practicable without access to something resembling a laboratory though. at the very least i'd want some good containers, lots of tubing, a very reliable thermometer, and a huge stack of info re. evaporation points of all known chemical compounds (even then i'd have to consider the fact that however i set up the process there's going to be pressure involved as well as heat so the evaporation temperatures will all change), either that or that bloke with the earing and the cheeky grin from rough science, he'd knock up something with half a coconut and a plastic bottle that'd be producing hot and cold running water and 100 year old cognac before the rest of us had finished bickering about the best way to light the fire

stuart

No actually, all you really need to do s get the water boiling, and leave it for a while, any compounds with boiling point less than that of water will evaporate naturally away. Anything with boiling point less than water will remain in the water, however after about 5 mins anything with a lower boiling temperature would have probably gone, thus only leaving the more robust compounds, these then can either be filtered as above, or distilled out of the water.

similar to this


However, I would use charcoal (activated is best) and sphagnum moss (Has a natural antiseptic in it). an old T-shirt can be used as a pre filter, and cotton wool (From your FA bag) can be used as a finer filter, and so on, the water will still require boiling to kill any virus or protozoa still remaining....

hope that helps

 

[shaggystu]

that makes lots of sense. filter, then boil, then distill should get rid of pretty much anything then i guess. just to clarify, i wasn't really asking how to go about producing clean water, (a clean water supply is right up near the top of my list of what makes a good place to camp) i was just concerned about the assertation that..."You could always make a solar still as that will leave any chemicals behind." i didn't want people to be thinking that a solar still is a guarenteed way of producing safe water

stuart

 

[udamiano]

Thats very true shaggystu, however I should be noted that the source supply and its initial state count for a lot.
A solar still for instance is totally suitable for a sea journey, etc.

a simple common sense approach should always be applied first, the heavier the initial pollution the more it needs to be done

 

[ateallthepies]

Two sites I have been looking at on this subject are... http://www.thameswater.co.uk/cps/rde/xchg/corp/hs.xsl/2915.htm and http://www.freedrinkingwater.com/water-education/quality-water-filtration-method.htm

I doubt Thames Water distil their water to remove pesticides so they say on that link they use Ozone and also Activated Carbon to remove pesticides. The other site says that distilling water can INCREASE pesticides in the end product if they have a lower boiling point than 100 degrees C.

Any suspect water source should be made safe by filtration down to sub micron levels, activated carbon adsorption, distillation and then a final activated carbon treatment to catch anything left? Does this sound right??

Very confusing subject.

Steve.