Ventile vs modern fabrics?

[johnboy]

Hi Toddy,

I read you post with interest.

I would have bought my Berghaus Jackets in about 1988-1989 and after a lot of use all over the place they are a bit tired and sad looking but still serviceable.

Berghaus used to make a good bit of fabric back then with a Taslan Nylon face fabric with a decent scrim protecting the membrane and really good seam sealing all done by hard working folk in Newcastle IIRC. So 21 years service out of a Goretex jacket seems to be at least possible.. I suppose I would get another 3-4 years out of them barring anything major...

I'm truely sorry to read your account of your friends accident with melting nylon trousers. I'm sorry your experience does not parallel mine when it comes to incidents involving nylon outdoor fabric and melting or 'shrink wrapping'.

I would say the coldest I've ever been on a mountain or in the bush and the closest I feel I've ever been to hypothermia was decending from the Pinnacles track on the Coromandel here in NZ I was wearing my single layer Ventile jacket a woolen sweater and a polypro baselayer Poly cotton trousers and a pair of sympatex ( nylon) water proof leggings All my top layers were soaked through the ambient temp was well above freezing but it wasn't warm and I was chilled and had to keep moving to keep warm. The problem was of course the dry kit in my bergen would have been soaked if I'd have worn that as the Ventile jacket would not have kept the rain out... I didn't really wear that Ventile jacket much after that.

 

[Toddy]

As said before, it's always a compromise.......unless you are in specific environments, like cold, dry Arctic.

You've done well to have goretex last that long, mine delaminate where workwear causes pressure or creasing........across the shoulders where my pack sits, at the elbows and just below the waist. The triple point ceramic beat it hands down but it got pulled from manufacture after being bought over by the goretex folks

Joe's example is the one object lesson I need to remember that a spark can set off a horrific inflagration

I don't think I'd have worn single skin lightweight ventile and been comfortable in those conditions either.
On one of the earlier threads we discussed dressing for this climate, wet and cold but not freezing, and windy and exposed. The conclusion was windproof beat breathable. Thole the damp and keep moving to keep warm inside the waterproofs.
HWMBLT says his ventile is fine even when soaked because it's windproof and he keeps moving. The heat from his exertions slowly dries off the ventile from the inside out. He is much more active than I am, hillwalking is my idea of hell these days but he thrives on it

Ventile I find comfortable in my wanderings, but not in downpours. Double skin, heavier weight stuff though, takes a lot of beating if you're active.

It was originally developed to be a comfortable garment in wear that if it got soaked would swell the fibres and create a barrier layer. It becomes for many folks a well loved garment.

In the past folks managed fine with wool, linen, leather and occasionally grass capes. You'd think that with all the technology we have available we'd do better now.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[BorderReiver]

Johnboy, single layer ventile is ok for showers but a total waste of time in rain.

It's the way it works; DWR is a waste of time on ventile, the stuff is supposed to soak up water. The fibres swell up and seal the cloth to further water. The second layer only gets damp and the damp doesn't get through to the inside.

I have a ventile shirt which I wear in summer when it's showery. It keeps me dry for about an hour in fairly heavy downpours.

Glad that you survived your soakings.

 

[widu13]

I have an ex MOD MVP which works okay but feels clammy, a Regatta Isotex (Goretex copy) which lets water in if there is no body heat to evaporate heavy rain (ie the hood when a wax cap is worn underneath). I find a wax very good EXCEPT when using a rucksack which then makes me very very clammy on the back.

The best arrangement for me so far has been a cheap (£25) cotton SAS pattern smock for wind proofing topped by a poncho (belt needed when windy). Now I'm trying to get a reasonably priced smock made up in ventile (but the vendor's run out of material) so I'm contemplating a SASS smock to go with the poncho.

My point is, this set up isn't gucchi top notch equipment with the most modern fabrics but does keep me warm and dry. Simple and back to basics can work well.

 

[dogwood]

Toddy, I'm sorry to hear about your friend's tragedy. But it's still an isolated event -- millions of people use synthetics in outdoors environments without fire mishaps.

Sure, tragedies happen. Under all kinds of circumstances. But people get a little irrational about some of these risks. Particularly in a climate where people often don't have camp fires. (And remember, burning canvas tents happened in years past...)

Mind you, I'm putting myself up as a big defender of synthetics.

While I own two Goretex jackets, I seldom where them in other than in the city. I think for most (read: almost any) outdoor purpose a natural fabric is better. (Wool, wool, wool...)

I just feel there's a too much handwringing about goretex.


(Note, there's a typo above -- it should read "I'm NOT putting myself up as a big defender of synthetics" -- just want to be clear...)

 

[treadlightly]

Maybe there is a case for using wool as the main weatherproof layer during the British autumn, winter and spring? Warm when wet, surprisingly water resistant and breathes well.

I've always been pleasantly surprised at how well it performs in rain.

 

[Toddy]

Dogwood I don't think I've made myself clear.
I'm a natural fibres fan but I freely admit I use goretex.

I genuinely believe that there is no one 'do it all everywhere' fabric.
Mind you, wool comes pretty close

MacAlpine came to the judgement for the throne. The others of suitable rank were dressed to show status, wealth, power and influence.
He wore a jacket of tanned Salmon skins.
Guess who they chose as king ?
The man in the cagoule
Do you think our ancestors knew the weather, and that a king who couldn't deal with it would be no damned use ?

I have friends whose Buffalo shirts look like they've been spattered with carbon (burn holes), still serviceable but kind of trashed. Goretex is the same. For choice I don't wear it near fire.
Maybe it's the way we camp and wander here fires are kind of commonplace.

cheers,
Toddy

 

[leon-1]

I would say the coldest I've ever been on a mountain or in the bush and the closest I feel I've ever been to hypothermia was decending from the Pinnacles track on the Coromandel here in NZ I was wearing my single layer Ventile jacket a woolen sweater and a polypro baselayer Poly cotton trousers and a pair of sympatex ( nylon) water proof leggings All my top layers were soaked through the ambient temp was well above freezing but it wasn't warm and I was chilled and had to keep moving to keep warm. The problem was of course the dry kit in my bergen would have been soaked if I'd have worn that as the Ventile jacket would not have kept the rain out... I didn't really wear that Ventile jacket much after that.

Most of us have had bad experiences with specific bits of kit, I got absolutely soaked to the skin and partially frozen whilst climbing Buachaille Etive Mòr during a winter climb. I was wearing a North Face Mountain Jacket at the time with little more than a T-Shirt underneath as I knew that my exertions would keep me warm. It didn't work out quite like that. Every one of us were caught out in the same way and nearly all of us had done the mountain and arctic warfare cadre.
The next day I took a cheap Keela innovation 7 jacket onto the hill and was the only dry person out of the lot of us to come off the hill. I have worn Ventile up there for the likes of Am Bodach and running the Aonach Eagach ridge and not had too many problems.
I should point out that I have a double layer, a single layer and a combination jacket that's double in some places and single in others. I also have ventile shirts for summer use (underneath a single layer windshirt they are ideal when it rains).
I have never said that Ventile is waterproof, it's not, it's water resilient and people should be aware of this when they buy a jacket as it effects what you use as a base and a mid layer.
Someone mentioned Montaine jackets, I like them as well. I have one here which I have had for years.
It's very much horses for courses and as Toddy said getting the right mix for all conditions in one jacket I wouldn't say is impossible (we all need hope), but more than highly unlikely.

 

[steven andrews]

I would probably opt for Gore-Tex if I was out in the chucking rain for hours at a time - but I never am. Ventile is my outer of choice, generally over merino base layers and wool or polyester fleece mid-layers.
I have been impressed by the water resistant properties of proofed single layer Ventile.
It is as water proof as I will ever need and I love the comfort and breathability of my Ventile smocks.
Thinking about it, I haven't worn my Gore-Tex jacket for years.

 

[locum76]

I was thinking about this today when I was out on me bike.

I've got jackets made of heavy cotton stuff for working and playing in the woods (olive drab), but I have a modern techy fabric jacket for being out on the bike (bright red). I don't have any ventile clothing because its expensive.

This works best for me.

At this time of year, I like to have a wooly base layer for the lot.

My tuppence.

Rob

 

[Tengu]

So you reccomend Salmon Skins?

Why not whale intestines, easier to sew.

 

[John Fenna]

My current "smart" jacket is a Paramo lined Ventile from Hilltrek...for bushyness I am still wearing my older and more battered Ventile, mainly over wool and for realy rough work a tight weave canvas jacket over wool.....
My Gortex stuff (mainly supurb Scandinavian stuff) gets the odd airing (if it is horribly wet out and the other stuff is in the wash) but it is not quite as comfortable to wear for long periods, though it does work!
My legwear is either 5:11 polycotton, Fjallraven Polycotton, Gabardine RAF surplus (thanks Jed) or if it is very wet Hilltrek Ventile.
This is across the board - from city to bushy - though if out for a couple of days a poncho and overtrousers come with me - but rarely get used!

Most breathable waterproof fabrics do not work if they are wetted out on the surface and tend to be noisy to wear (especially cheap ones) so as a sweaty person I soon get wet from condensed perspiration which soaks back to the body no matter how good your layering system...
A puncture in a synthetic membrane waterproof is curtains for its integrity - Ventile is easily repaired.....
As to melt problems - I used to smoke a pipe and ruined many a fleece and synthetic waterproof top with sparks...wol and Ventile barely got marked!

 

[Toddy]

So you reccomend Salmon Skins?

Why not whale intestines, easier to sew.

But salmon skins are easily available, whales are damned hard work to catch.
In the not so distant past it was said that one could walk dry shod across rivers on the backs of the red fish
I thought walrus intestines were the ones to choose anyway ?

cheers,
M