Ventile vs modern fabrics?

[Buckshot]

Have I got the wrong end of this but...

My understanding is Ventile is a fairly old invention and, although OK in the breathable and waterproof stakes, is beaten hands down when up against more modern fabrics.

Why then does everybody get so excited about this fabric - what am I missing, it must have a pretty good plus side somewhere to win overall

(I currently wear a 'modern fabric' jacket) :-?

Cheers

Mark

 

[AntarcticFire]

The below link answers has some answers...

http://outside.away.com/gear/gearguy/200309/20030905.html

I've currently got a West Winds Ben Nevis jacket (ventile) that I found
on sale and I love it to bits. :-D

 

[Tony]

Have I got the wrong end of this but...

My understanding is Ventile is a fairly old invention and, although OK in the breathable and waterproof stakes, is beaten hands down when up against more modern fabrics.

Why then does everybody get so excited about this fabric - what am I missing, it must have a pretty good plus side somewhere to win overall

(I currently wear a 'modern fabric' jacket) :-?

Cheers

Mark

How is it beaten hands down compared to modern fabrics?

 

[Adi007]

Modern fabrics rip, melt, burn and puncture a lot easier than ventile. Also, modern fabrics need an awful lot of care to stay waterproof and breathable.

 

[boaty]

Modern fabrics rip, melt, burn and puncture a lot easier than ventile. Also, modern fabrics need an awful lot of care to stay waterproof and breathable.

The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to me to combine the virtues of the various fabrics available.

A tough, windproof, somewhat waterproof (Ventile?) outer layer combined with a more delicate breathable waterproof layer, like the Goretex smock liners you can get, then a warming layer (e.g. fleece) finally a base layer that wicks well. Combine as many of the above as the conditons require and you're happy.

I'm sure I'm the last person to work this out I may be slow but I get there eventually (Hey, maybe that should be my sig!)

 

[Gary]

An interesting addition to this thread is good old poly/cotton of an approx 65/35 mix - clothing made of this material is as tough as it comes, dries really quickly, light and pretty safe around the camp fire - more importantly its a darn sight cheaper than ventile.

Ventile is good - but not waterproof - ventile is tough but very slow drying and takes on a horrible stiffnes when wet.

Modern fabrics are exxentially plastic and melt near fire.

My latest and greatest re-discovery is the US M65 jacket - a real one not a cheap or expensive imitation is poly cotton comes with a liner and doesnt cost a fortune.

Anyone out to get a good bushcraft jacket would be well advised to look at these - after all the yank military have used em for 30 years! For trousers look at British lightweights these are green and again poly cotton - fantastic and again minimum expendature financially.

Hope that helps.

 

[sargey]

My latest and greatest re-discovery is the US M65 jacket

issat woodland or OG? complete with extendable ninja cuffs too! :-D

mine doesn't get used as much as it once did. the strange thing i find is how warm it is for only two layers of polycotton.

still takes quite a while to dry though.

cheers, and.

 

[Adi007]

I love my Arktis sniper smock for the same reason ... ripstop polycotton that's not going to get holes in it all the time yet dries easily ... I've also proofed it with Nikwax Cotton Proof that helps a lot!

 

[TAHAWK]

The excitement went out of Ventile over here when the gov't created testing standards for "waterproof" and Ventile failed miserably. Devoid of the ability to even call itself "waterproof," it disappeared pretty fast.

Now there are texturized nylons that hold water repellant chemicals as well as cotton ever did. Not much interest in them either -- not "waterproof."

Still that melting problem, but I've had one hole in 25 years of nylon and polyester (pine wood fire %^$&#!!).

On the plus side, nylon and polyester are both much more abbrasion-resistant than cotton.

Back to the minus side, Gore-tex stops breathing when the outside gets wet as the vapor pressure can't overcome the film strength of the water --might as well be wearing "oilskin." This can be overcome to some extent by designing ventilation into the garment.

One solution. Listen to Mom. "Come in out of the rain."

 

[Martyn]

I'm leaning more and more towards something in ventile. I suppose it depends on your usage. To be honest, I dont go out all that often in really foul weather, moderately inclemant is OK, but like you say if it's stormy, I come in out of the rain. So for me, a ventile, with a cheap, small (thin), non-breathable, waterproof poncho is looking a good option. If it's drizzly, the ventile should be fine on it's own. If the heavans suddenly open, out with the poncho. If it's a full blown storm, I dont go out (or I have my old goretex if I really need to). But to buy a jacket made of goretex, which is only really needed (for me anyway) once in a blue moon, I'd be sacrificing all the comfort, softness, quietness, durability and breathability of cotton.

I guess if your job or hobby regularly takes you out in truly foul conditions, your requirements are different.

 

[Tony]

The excitement went out of Ventile over here when the gov't created testing standards for "waterproof" and Ventile failed miserably. Devoid of the ability to even call itself "waterproof," it disappeared pretty fast.

in the past a magazine over here has said the same things about Páramo clothing, that it is not classed as a water proof, but it works better than many alternatives, it just works in a different way. The same for ventile, get the right type of fabric, use the right design and you have a waterproof garment.
Tests where they just take a square of fabric and stick them on a machine can be very misleading and very damaging to the confidence in that products. A shame when it is often unwarranted.

 

[Buckshot]

Thanks everyone, now I understand - I think

I need a jacket that is waterproof because during the winter especially I don't have the option of rolling over, pulling the duvet up a bit and going back to sleep I need a jacket that is as 'fully waterproof' as I can get within reason (not an oilskin )

For that reason I think my best bet is to stick with fabrics like Gortex as they come closest to fulfill my needs.

Cheers again :ekt:

Mark

 

[dtalbot]

in the past a magazine over here has said the same things about Páramo clothing, that it is not classed as a water proof, but it works better than many alternatives, it just works in a different way. The same for ventile, get the right type of fabric, use the right design and you have a waterproof garment.
Tests where they just take a square of fabric and stick them on a machine can be very misleading and very damaging to the confidence in that products. A shame when it is often unwarranted.

Yep, the testing is oftern complete nonsense, as to Paramo and the like I go by my personal testing in stormy weather:

Paramo - never let any weather in
Waxed Cotton - never let any weather in
Gortex - Ended up soaked in a couple of hours
Ventile - I'll let you know when I've made (well my wife has made) my new jacket!
David

 

[Adi007]

I agree ... tests such as hydrostatic head and burst pressures aren't something that you can easily relate to the real world ...

When you really look at the drawbacks of the breathable fabrics, it's amazing that they are used for much more than gucci clothing!!! They are poorly placed for the outdoors (look how easy a spark or thorn can take out a £300 jacket!)

So basically, mil-spec tests for cloth ... bad :evil:
Knife handles (a la new WS Woodlore) ... good :-D :-D

Tests where they just take a square of fabric and stick them on a machine can be very misleading and very damaging to the confidence in that products. A shame when it is often unwarranted.

 

[JeremyH]

Interesting comments. I am looking at Ventile for summer wear here in the Hebrides. Use a bufalo pertex at the moment good but not waterproof..or a lightweight wax cotton - problems with sand/salt and proofing. For winter I have been using wool Ghillie coat -made here on Islay. Fantastic. Heavy in the rain but keeps me dry-especially as the weather here can be wet wet in winter. I guess not dissimilar to Swanndri.

So...horses for courses. I would just add though that my clients who use Gortex always seem wetter/colder after a day's birding.

JeremyH

 

[FJS90-91]

For that reason I think my best bet is to stick with fabrics like Gortex as they come closest to fulfill my needs.

Cheers again :ekt:

Mark

Personaly i dont prefer GTX in the winter because it realeses heat trough the GTX and thats not good in the winter..

 

[TAHAWK]

Personaly i dont prefer GTX in the winter because it realeses heat trough the GTX and thats not good in the winter..

In severe cold, the problem with Gore-Tex is not loss of heat. The problem is that it does not breath enough = traped moisture causing inner layers to get damp - even wet. At those temps, water is not present externally - just ice and snow. Untreated nylon, polyester, tightly-woven cotton or "Boiled" wool all work better than Gore-Tex in severe cold.

As for anecdotal evidence of Gore-tex letting water IN, that may be a matter of condensation or seam leakage. I have a bucket I use backpacking that I made from Gore-Tex. The seams are glopped with sealant. It does not leak. I've filled it (about 3 ltrs) and suspended it above newsprint for hours. Not a drop leaked.

 

[Great Pebble]

You could go off your M-65 sharpish if you ever get it soaked in the field

Nick in Belfast

 

[yowee]

There is another option a quiet ripstop poly cotton outer with a goretex or porvair drop liner, I have one of these for use in the Ranger service it's quiet warm and waterproof as a week on a woodsmoke nomad course proved, it comes with a 3 year warranty and is made by the nice people at karrimor SF, it comes in almost any camo pattern you could think of and of course OG, these are issued to most police forces for covert ops, so far I can't fault it, it also can zip in any fleece with a ykk zip so is very versitile it has 7 pockets 2 big cargo ones 2 handwarmers (that can be accessed even when wearing a rucksac), and there are trousers to match if you want. :-D

 

[Burnt Ash]

I find Goretex to be almost completely useless in many circumstances in the British Isles for two reasons:

THISTLES
&
GORSE

Once a Goretex membrane is punctured by the very fine and very penetrating spines of thistles/gorse, it leaks. That's it! End of story!

If you can stand the expense, choose Ventile for its relative toughness; quietness; relative resistance to biting insects; comfort when dry (not so nice when really wet, hard and stiff) and a useful degree of showerproofness (I find it helps to wash Ventile in appropriate Nikwax product, or spray with Grangers).

Paramo garments work on a completely different priciple. The fabric actively pumps liquid water outwards, especially if you're moving constantly. It beats Gortex and other membrane waterproof systems hands down on breathability (sweat box) tests. You can lie in a gorse bush in a Paramo garment and it will retain full functional waterproofness. Try that with Goretex!

I have to agree with other posters on this thread that poly-cotton cloth is very functionally effective (tough, comfortable, quiet, relatively windproof and slow(ish) to get pongy). It's fine for ordinary everyday wind shirts, bushjackets, etc. It is, of course, much cheaper than Ventile.

IMO, really impervious ponchos (PVC sheet) are the most effective waterproofs. The poncho has vastly better ventilation than any closed jacket design, which more than compensates for any lack of breathability in the fabric. On the debit side, ponchos aren't suited to several activities: they'd be useless for sailing; serious climbing or any activity that required much use of hands/arms above shoulder level. They can be positively dangerous in very high winds.

Burnt Ash