To wear camo or not...

[santaman2000]

Interesting point about someone not seeing purple. Really dark colours or black act as it were as a light sink that draws the eye. Terry Pratchett makes this point in several of his books that deep black is actually quite noticeable at night whereas grey or even perhaps red is far harder to see....

I can say from years of experience that he's definitely wrong about black being noticeable at night. But he's quite right about red (if it's a dull red or dark red anyway) It actually turns black in the dark. That's why fire trucks went to a day-glo yellowish green for so many decades.

 

[boatman]

Easy to test about the visibility of black. Point is that although you may not see the black itself it may well contrast so sharply with its surroundings that in effect it is a cut-out shape of a person and easily visible, a light sink as I said.

 

[HillBill]

Aye, black is a bad colour to wear at night if the intent is to hide. The only place you can hide is in equal darkness. Which isnt very common.

 

[santaman2000]

Easy to test about the visibility of black. Point is that although you may not see the black itself it may well contrast so sharply with its surroundings that in effect it is a cut-out shape of a person and easily visible, a light sink as I said.

Spend some time in the woods looking for people (or in an urban alley) and you'll soon find that's not true. At least not if they stay below the horizon. I did that for a living.

 

[santaman2000]

Aye, black is a bad colour to wear at night if the intent is to hide. The only place you can hide is in equal darkness. Which isnt very common.

Shadows are very common. And it's the perfect place to wear black when you want to hide.

Granted, grey is good also

 

[HillBill]

But shadows to the accustomed eye are not black like black clothing is, and sometimes there are no shadows to hide in. Black on black is easier to see by using peripherals.

And i used to do it for a living too

 

[santaman2000]

Once your vision ajusts to monchromatic (as it always does in darkness) it's true enough that EVERYTHING is easier seen by peripherals. But there are ALWAYS shadows in an urban or suburban environment, with their dim streetlights and buildings.; Remember that the last 13 years I did it professionally was as a cop or corrections officer (your quarry is always hiding near the building that cast the shadows or in the woods or bushes as they try to escape; all of those cast shadows. There's a reason that both thugs and SWAT Teams (as well as SEAL Teams) wear black; and so did the VC during the Vietnam War (HORRORS to a bushcrafter, they wore COTTON! black pajamas) That said, I am talking about dull black, not bright black chrome or gloss black.

I'm not saying that black is neccessary (or even the best) But that it will work very effectively as long as you don't profile yourself against the horizon or allow yourself to be backlighted at night. No clothing yet developped is a substitute for stalking skills.

Night or day, if you really want to test your skills, forget about people (or any mammals for that matter) and try to hide from birds. If you've ever tried to hunt doves or waterfowl with bright colored clothing you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Andy BB]

Them ninjas knew a thing or two

 

[Laurentius]

Once your vision ajusts to monchromatic (as it always does in darkness) it's true enough that EVERYTHING is easier seen by peripherals. But there are ALWAYS shadows in an urban or suburban environment, with their dim streetlights and buildings.; Remember that the last 13 years I did it professionally was as a cop or corrections officer (your quarry is always hiding near the building that cast the shadows or in the woods or bushes as they try to escape; all of those cast shadows. There's a reason that both thugs and SWAT Teams (as well as SEAL Teams) wear black; and so did the VC during the Vietnam War (HORRORS to a bushcrafter, they wore COTTON! black pajamas) That said, I am talking about dull black, not bright black chrome or gloss black.

I'm not saying that black is neccessary (or even the best) But that it will work very effectively as long as you don't profile yourself against the horizon or allow yourself to be backlighted at night. No clothing yet developped is a substitute for stalking skills.

Night or day, if you really want to test your skills, forget about people (or any mammals for that matter) and try to hide from birds. If you've ever tried to hunt doves or waterfowl with bright colored clothing you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

I am not sure that everyone's eyes can adapt to the dark the same way, I do think to some it is an inborn advantage, some folks are able to see further into the ultra violet spectrum than others and I think that is a distinct advantage to be able to see more of that natural fluorescence than others.

 

[HillBill]

I shoot pigeon - correction i shot wood pigeon, for quite a few years as a pest controller on an estate i worked. But yes, birds see movement. But a white face contrasts against a woodland backdrop, so they get spooked easily. But its the contrast they see.

Once your vision ajusts to monchromatic (as it always does in darkness) it's true enough that EVERYTHING is easier seen by peripherals. But there are ALWAYS shadows in an urban or suburban environment, with their dim streetlights and buildings.; Remember that the last 13 years I did it professionally was as a cop or corrections officer (your quarry is always hiding near the building that cast the shadows or in the woods or bushes as they try to escape; all of those cast shadows. There's a reason that both thugs and SWAT Teams (as well as SEAL Teams) wear black; and so did the VC during the Vietnam War (HORRORS to a bushcrafter, they wore COTTON! black pajamas) That said, I am talking about dull black, not bright black chrome or gloss black.

I'm not saying that black is neccessary (or even the best) But that it will work very effectively as long as you don't profile yourself against the horizon or allow yourself to be backlighted at night. No clothing yet developped is a substitute for stalking skills.

Night or day, if you really want to test your skills, forget about people (or any mammals for that matter) and try to hide from birds. If you've ever tried to hunt doves or waterfowl with bright colored clothing you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.

 

[Silverclaws]

I actually am wearing DPM as I type this... DPM windproof trousers...
Actually they have so much white paint and putty on them they could pass as Arctic cammo. I am a big fan of army surplus for REALY dirty work as it is so cheap (actually free in the case of these trousers) thaty I do not care if I totally trash them!
Mind you - I would not be seen dead wearing DPM in the woods

In DPM, chances are you wouldn't, until someone tripped over your rotting carcass.

I wear black, because I like the colour black, one never has odd socks and most of my wardrobe is black, except for the odd purple and a bit of green. My intention is not to hide, but black I understand in daylight goes unnoticed, which suits me fine.

 

[santaman2000]

I shoot pigeon - correction i shot wood pigeon, for quite a few years as a pest controller on an estate i worked. But yes, birds see movement. But a white face contrasts against a woodland backdrop, so they get spooked easily. But its the contrast they see.

They also see colors which among mammals, is only possible for primates.

 

[santaman2000]

I am not sure that everyone's eyes can adapt to the dark the same way, I do think to some it is an inborn advantage, some folks are able to see further into the ultra violet spectrum than others and I think that is a distinct advantage to be able to see more of that natural fluorescence than others.

A persons ability to see ANY color in the spectrum depends entirely on the color receptors in their eye ("cones" if you study human anatomy and physiology) Humans have hundreds of cones per eye (possibly thousands) but only of 3 wavelengths; Red, Blue, and Yellow. That's why those are considered the primary colors. Some humans have one or more of those cone wavelengths missing (hence color blindness) But NO-ONE has cones of any additional wavelength including ultraviolet.

Night vision depends on the monochromatic receptors ("rods" if you study the aforementioned human anatomy and physiology) and when in low light the human eye cannot do ANYTHING BUT shift to them; and they are definitely peripheral based receptors.

 

[Laurentius]

A persons ability to see ANY color in the spectrum depends entirely on the color receptors in their eye ("cones" if you study human anatomy and physiology) Humans have hundreds of cones per eye (possibly thousands) but only of 3 wavelengths; Red, Blue, and Yellow. That's why those are considered the primary colors. Some humans have one or more of those cone wavelengths missing (hence color blindness) But NO-ONE has cones of any additional wavelength including ultraviolet.

Night vision depends on the monochromatic receptors ("rods" if you study the aforementioned human anatomy and physiology) and when in low light the human eye cannot do ANYTHING BUT shift to them; and they are definitely peripheral based receptors.

Research shows otherwise: It is the lens of the eye that usually blocks ultraviolet, but all colour receptors are sensitive to it in some degree.

Stark, W.S. and Tan, K.E.W.P. Ultraviolet light: Photosensitivity and other effects of the visual system. Photochemistry and Photobiology, 1982, 36, 371-380. (Invited review to accompany American Society for Photobiology1981 Meeting Lecture). PubMed

Stark, W.S. Photopic sensitivities to ultraviolet and visible wavelengths and the effects of the macular pigments in human aphakic observers. Current Eye Research, 1987, 6, 631-638. PubMed

Griswold, M. S., Stark, W. S. Scotopic spectral sensitivity of phakic and aphakic observers extending into the near ultraviolet. Vision Research, 1992, 32, 1739-1743. PubMed

Stark. W. S., Wagner, R. H., Gillespie, C. M., Ultraviolet sensitivity of three cone types in the aphakic observer determined by chromatic adaptation. Vision Research, 1994, 34, 1457-1459. PubMed

 

[Dartmoor navigator]

Camouflage is a relative...

Today I shall be wearing a twinset and pearls with a lovely pair of shoes and matching handbag. I've had my hair done and I shall be taking my shopping basket on wheels with me.

Just the right 'camo' to blend in while out amidst the tea rooms of Budleigh Salterton.

 

[santaman2000]

Research shows otherwise: It is the lens of the eye that usually blocks ultraviolet, but all colour receptors are sensitive to it in some degree.

Stark, W.S. and Tan, K.E.W.P. Ultraviolet light: Photosensitivity and other effects of the visual system. Photochemistry and Photobiology, 1982, 36, 371-380. (Invited review to accompany American Society for Photobiology1981 Meeting Lecture). PubMed

Stark, W.S. Photopic sensitivities to ultraviolet and visible wavelengths and the effects of the macular pigments in human aphakic observers. Current Eye Research, 1987, 6, 631-638. PubMed

Griswold, M. S., Stark, W. S. Scotopic spectral sensitivity of phakic and aphakic observers extending into the near ultraviolet. Vision Research, 1992, 32, 1739-1743. PubMed

Stark. W. S., Wagner, R. H., Gillespie, C. M., Ultraviolet sensitivity of three cone types in the aphakic observer determined by chromatic adaptation. Vision Research, 1994, 34, 1457-1459. PubMed

All three color receptors are are sensitive to ALL wavelengths within their range. The color you actually "see" is determined by the amount of sensitivity in each receptor and the combined effect of all of them. That said, they have an upper and lower limit on what wavelengths they are sensitive too. Ultraviolet is outside those limits. IF there is indeed someone who's eyes have receptors with an extended range of sensitivity, that would seem to be a mutation. Sorry I cain't pull up your references at the moment but I will try later, time permitting. It would be interesting to find that my info is wrong; to say the least. Seeing as how the most recent one is over 18 years old and they still haven't changed the textbooks, it seems unlikely though.

 

[Laurentius]

All three color receptors are are sensitive to ALL wavelengths within their range. The color you actually "see" is determined by the amount of sensitivity in each receptor and the combined effect of all of them. That said, they have an upper and lower limit on what wavelengths they are sensitive too. Ultraviolet is outside those limits. IF there is indeed someone who's eyes have receptors with an extended range of sensitivity, that would seem to be a mutation. Sorry I cain't pull up your references at the moment but I will try later, time permitting. It would be interesting to find that my info is wrong; to say the least. Seeing as how the most recent one is over 18 years old and they still haven't changed the textbooks, it seems unlikely though.

Professor Stark is referred to in this 2002 Guardian article http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2002/may/30/medicalscience.research. That being said I had heard about this ability before then. My vision is certainly very sensitive to the blue wavelength anyway, which is why I wear a reddish tint in my lenses. My optician is satisfied that I am safe to drive at night wearing tinted lenses, though I usually don't as I am not sure the police would agree. Very strange things happen in very low light is all that I can say of my experience, certain artefacts appear to glow rather like objects under a black light at a disco.

 

[Silverclaws]

Camo can be a complex and artistic subject given who was employed in WW2 to hide things. There was a report by a single engined fighter being delivered to it's operational location where the instruction was to land, but the pilot did not see a runway, instead they saw country fields with drystone walls and had to land on trust only, to find the runway was the appearance of country fields and dry stone walls.

But of what people may wear to hide themselves in the background, what use is it these days in modern warfare where the heat signature of living flesh is hard to hide ? Sure, I have heard some combat wear has metalised foil inserts to reflect the heat signature, but how effective is that given what technology exists to discern warm living flesh from the colder background of nature ?

But camo or not, I still maintain detection, a lot of it is about movement before irregularities in pattern, stay still and it is surprising how many may miss your presence, as it is those who may seek another expect movement.

 

[British Red]

Camouflage is a relative...

Today I shall be wearing a twinset and pearls with a lovely pair of shoes and matching handbag. I've had my hair done and I shall be taking my shopping basket on wheels with me.

Just the right 'camo' to blend in while out amidst the tea rooms of Budleigh Salterton.

Nonsense, if you are under 70 and don't smell faintly of wee you will stick out like a sore thumb

 

[Dartmoor navigator]

Nonsense, if you are under 70 and don't smell faintly of wee you will stick out like a sore thumb

Curses; foiled again!!! Oh, hang on, I do smell of wee