Survival v Bushcraft?

[Oblio13]

I don't understand the desire to chop with knives. They simply aren't good at it. Trying to make them big and heavy enough to chop wood with even marginal effectiveness only ruins them for their legitimate purposes. Bowie-style knives are a badge that says "I got my outdoor skills by watching Rambo and Crocodile Dundee".

... I will lay out the Military aircrew/pilot ejected over northern europe in winter as my case provenance... You might need to create shelter, make fire (chop wood for fire), and possibly clear a space for a rescue helicopter to land. That is why the MOD survival knife is basically a short, heavy chopper...

As a retired military pilot (and current airline and bush pilot) with several survival schools and exercises (and two crashes) under my belt: There's almost never a need to chop wood for fire. You'll just waste energy and give yourself blisters. Simply burn the ends of the logs, or burn them in half. And no need to clear the forest with a knife for rescue helicopters, they can drop you a line as easily as landing. As for shelter-building, an axe and a shovel would be nice. But I don't see that a Rambo knife would be an improvement over a Mora.

The knives issued to military pilots are junk, made by the lowest bidder. Those of us who were serious about survival replaced them. The only reasons they're larger and heavier than, say, a Mora, is that they might be used to hack through a plexiglass canopy or to fight with. I replaced my issued Ka-Bar with a Buck "Nighthawk", and my issued pilot survival knife with a 4" Kershaw. I still have both. The Buck has hardly ever been used. Even though it's an improvement over a Ka-Bar, it's still too large and awkward for almost everything.

... Beware of the guy who only has one gun, because he knows how to use it...

Nor do I understand that oft-repeated axiom. I can't imagine a skillful shooter having only one firearm any more than I can imagine a skillful whittler having only one knife, a skillful cook having only one pot, or a skillful reader having only one book.

 

[Hoodoo]

I don't understand the desire to chop with knives. They simply aren't good at it. Trying to make them big and heavy enough to chop wood with even marginal effectiveness only ruins them for their legitimate purposes. Bowie-style knives are a badge that says "I got my outdoor skills by watching Rambo and Crocodile Dundee".

As a retired military pilot (and current airline and bush pilot) with several survival schools and exercises (and two crashes) under my belt: There's almost never a need to chop wood for fire. You'll just waste energy and give yourself blisters. Simply burn the ends of the logs, or burn them in half. And no need to clear the forest with a knife for rescue helicopters, they can drop you a line as easily as landing. As for shelter-building, an axe and a shovel would be nice. But I don't see that a Rambo knife would be an improvement over a Mora.

The knives issued to military pilots are junk, made by the lowest bidder. Those of us who were serious about survival replaced them. The only reasons they're larger and heavier than, say, a Mora, is that they might be used to hack through a plexiglass canopy or to fight with. I replaced my issued Ka-Bar with a Buck "Nighthawk", and my issued pilot survival knife with a 4" Kershaw. I still have both. The Buck has hardly ever been used. Even though it's an improvement over a Ka-Bar, it's still too large and awkward for almost everything.


Nor do I understand that oft-repeated axiom. I can't imagine a skillful shooter having only one firearm any more than I can imagine a skillful whittler having only one knife, a skillful cook having only one pot, or a skillful reader having only one book.

A lot of good points there! I was right there with ya until you brought up the Buck Nighthawk. I'll take the 1095 Kabar over the 420HC Nighthawk. My experience with Bucks in general is that they don't do lateral stress well. The Nighthawk is one of the very few knives I've ever gotten rid of. Traded it straight up for a Becker Campanion.

 

[FGYT]

guess it all depends on the outlook of both styles of being outdoors

Bushcraft is living with and within the Natural world

Survival is fighting and using it till you get rescued and taken back home


Survival was the buzz word i nthe 80's now Bushcraft is the PC version

my Kukri and SAK where fine for all tasks until i realized i needed a 4" blade drop point full tang thingy and a GB Axe :twak:

skilled users can do mosttheings with most blades and definatly well enough to be comfey in the out doors though embelishing your Cheese board you just carved out with some intricate leave and vine carving is a little harder with a big rambo Knife

the Bushcraft knife helps bring the craft into it teh Woody is basically a Chunky woodwork carving tool etc

ATB

Duncan

 

[Waldganger]

One day I'll read this thread in its entirety. The first two pages were informative.

Ok, my response.

Urban - I carry this most days Emerson A131. In an urban survival, I may have to cut seat belts, break glass, cut through plasterboard or similar. Not really make snares, shelter or fire. I have been practicing those skills with this knife anyway, because they demonstrate fine skills, as well as giving myself a firm understanding of the knife's capabilities. I plan on making orange scales for it so it can accompany me into the bush, and I can leave the scandi in my pack so as not to scare the sheeple.

On my pushbike I have my backpack. In there aside from waterproof clothes and water bottle I have my maxped pouch, in that there is a SAK, Bic, pen and pad, flashlight and batteries, whistle, lansky and schrade stockman. All sitting on a paracord belt (woven like the bracelets. I imagine around 12-15 meters)

Outdoors - Add all of the above plus my Custom Bushcrafter (mine is natural micarta though) with firesteel. Add sleeping gear and cooking gear. Also would have either the Roselli Axe, or my Busse Fusion Battle Mistress. After some weekend playing, my Mistress is the winner in the "make and hammer in tent pegs" category, it chops fairly evenly with the Roselli, plus has the added benefit of not risking damaging the handle on an overshot swing. Would be quite an easy task to make shelter and camp chairs etc with either choppers.

What I would want in a survival situation, would be my bushcrafter, and for meat and fine detail work, I have this case trapper coming that will get a nice little crossdraw belt sheath.

I find that you should practice all your camp craft with your edc. As much as it feels like cheating on your favorite, you need to be able to do these skills with your edc. YOUR SURVIVAL KNIFE IS THE ONE YOU HAVE ON YOU

Like I was taught when I was a tacker

"Be Prepared" - Baden Powell

 

[Siberianfury]

I think the worry over stick tangs is a bit unfounded.
I mean look at all the classic large blade knives out there.
Most of them are stick tangs.
Swords are generally stick tang, and they're meant for abuse.
Onto the size debate, While I like "zombiekillers" I find a smaller blade more useful, and with good technique I can easily take a 2" tree with a 4" blade.

i agree, stick tangs are undervalued, if they didnt work before people wouldnt have used them, look at every chopping tool/weapon throught history and i garanteee you most will have a stick tang, often alot thinner than found on your avarage leuku, the strenght of a stick tang is in the handle material, a solid bit of birch or antler will do the job perfectly.

 

[FerlasDave]

When I go out I make myself comfortable in the outdoors. I dont carve or make special platted cordage. What I use a knife for are simple tasks like splitting firewood or making traps. I choose a big (ish) knife and it does me fine. I can feather with it, and chop logs. If the job is too big for the knife then I use a folding saw. Theres no need to fell trees unless I want to build a log cabin then I will have other tools with me. firewood can be found on the ground and easily battoned into kindling. Also I carry a small opinel but never really use it. I even skin small game with a big knife. Woodlores to me are ugly. I can appreciate the work people put into them but I will never own one or any bushy blade for that matter. My knife works fine for what I do. But remember just because I dont carve, doesnt mean I dont know how. I just dont see the point when Im out on an expedition.

 

[Waldganger]

so what do you take Davey?

 

[FerlasDave]

At the moment a modified MoD survival knife.
http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/3647/hpim0763z.jpg

But soon to be a Rat RC5.

 

[The Welsh Bear]

Hi,
Has any one been on a course in Wales by Wild Spirit Bushcraft?

http://www.bushcraftcourses.co.uk/

I'm looking for a knowledge course.

Thanks

 

[Stevan]

I did vote for survival knife.
But my survival knife is a bushcraft knife with a spine between 4 and 5 mm thick.
Maybe a secondary convex bevel on the scandigrind blade.
Not a longer knife, no serrations, no sawback or storage compartiment in the handle.
Just a bushcraft knife that is stronger built.

Regards, Stevan

 

[PREPER]

If the pole allowed I would have voted for both.
I try to choose a knife that would serve both purposes.
I am at the testing stage, it only been a year or so deciding.
It's a good excuse to take more than one knife out to 'play' with

PREPER.................

 

[TinkyPete]

I voted for a Bushcraft blade, and although I don't have a specialist one I have several different type of blades including survival knives and hunting knives, I tend to like well made/crafted blades that have a full tang and simple construction.

You get out of a knife what you put in. take care of your knife and it'll look after you, don't abuse it, a swiss army knife it not the best to baton with and I wouldn't fine wittle with a MOD survival knife

I think my next major knife purchase will be a Bernie, I have seen quite a few in people hands and they have to be one of the nicest knives I have seen, great workmanship and a true knife and they certainly seem to fit the bill, just got to save up for it now

 

[PeterHW]

Survival to me would be something in the UK that meets with our EDC legislation .... because if carrying a fixed blade I would need a specific reason for doing so .... if I am in that situation and know what my specific reason was I would be carrying a system of multiple tools according to my needs ....

For me a medium sized SAK which had blades and a wood saw but was not too bulky is my likely choice .... maybe combined with a UKPK as I like the quality of the fixed blade more than the SAK but I doubt I would be carrying both often ....

If I had a situation of "specific use" it would depend on what I was doing .... Bushcrafting would have a number of sharp tools .... a small fixed blade ... a folding saw ... and probably a SFA or a large knife such as a Khukri or Parang or a heavier chopping knife of which like the smaller bushcraft knives I have many and which I rotate or even take a few out with me on my enjoyment of comparing them .... in the never ending task of looking for what seems to work best. A task I never tire of ....

If out deer stalking probably a small fixed blade ... maybe if pigeon shooting a larger knife for building a hide .... but you get the idea ....

I would be suprised if anyone on this forum would just take the one belt knife if knowing they were going to be going to a "meet" or were going out to practise with a view to being in an overnight situation .... most probably have a "set up" which gets regularly packed and caters for chopping as well as delicate work.

For what it is worth after trying all manner of sizes of knives .... ( the bug got me bad and I own around 40 knives of all types and grinds ) I find the following general points to be true ....

I like a 4 to 5 inch blade best for smaller tasks and ideally with a hand filling grip ....

For "feel and skills" using the point of the knife .... after about 7 inches the "point" feels "remote" if working from the handle ....

You can do quite well with a larger knife by becoming proficient on choking up the blade and using a lanyard loop to help take the weight of the blade and roll the lanyard up towards your elbow .... but if you combine the size of the blade and peoples reaction to them and the irritation of carrying a large bladed knife on your belt when walking a good distance .... they tend to go into your backpack and so would a my SFA .... so large knives on belts are not really likely to happen for me in private life on an excursion into the "wilderness".... the exception being my webbing belt where I do carry a 8 or 9 inch blade which is for different reasons and in a different set up to that posed by the OP.

But if we were to consider situations of small private aircraft journeys say in Scandanavia etc where a possibility of a survival situation could emerge .... I would only be in the plane with my "set up" in a rucksack ....

If on a "commercial airline" ... well if you don't break any laws ... you won't have any knife with you.

Vehicles or anything else in the wilds .... same thing as the private aircraft journey .... and I expect everyone would be the same .... at least those who come on here ....

If anything holds true from everyone's experiences on here it is that "bushcraft/survival" is a lot better tackled with a range of tools than just settling for "one" .... and if you're switched on you know when you might need them.

 

[Andy BB]

Interesting! Particularly that few saw the need to address the original question. Reminds me of the punchline to the joke about the economist on the desert island, who, faced with a crate of baked bean tins, said "let's assume we have a tin-opener".

But being a pedantic sort of a guy, who hasn't hunted reindeer or moose, or been in the SFs and therefore can claim little practical expertise on the subject, one comment did catch my eye - that several "small" knives had been broken attempting to batten logs. and that brought me straight back to the original question.

For me, it would be a big knife -something like a genuine kukri. Why? Because a kukri can do delicate work if necessary (see the utube vid of a chef using a kukri in the kitchen), and can do much of the work of an axe into the bargain. and many on here would choose an axe over everything else if only allowed one tool - but that wasn't an option in the original question).

But the over-riding reason is for the aforementioned breaking of the small knives when taken out of their comfort zone - eg battening. A broken knife is effectively useless - so your sole knife has now disappeared - surely a disaster in any survival situation.

QED

 

[ananix]

To my mind the bushcraft blade is the popular alan wood/skoocum style whereas the survival blade is more like the f1 style

I have looked and looked and the only diffrence i really see is that one has a "scandi" grind an more of a droppoint blade and the other a flat grind with less of a droppoint.

I'm trying to avoid a lenghty discourse on the fine differences between the two and I suppose the bushcraft blade has a wider role in creating items whereas the survival blade tends to include the "hunting" element in it (skinning etc).

Maybe you should have gone for other type castings of knifes than "bushcraft" and "survival" that are very broad in definition unlike blade, handle, grind type or something like that.

To me hunting or finding and preparing food with my knife is a major part of bushcraft. So is it the gut hook and normal blade that makes a survival knife for you?

I agree that the bushcraft style is a survival knife in a given situation but if you had the choice?

To me my Kershaw deer hunter knife with blade grip is the perfect bushcraft knife and i would choose that over anything, but in your definition its a survival? So i would choose survival in your poll.

To me a survival knife is a comprimise between a bushcraft knife and a combat knife but deffently leaning more to the combat side with one or more of such features as, straight blade for stabin, raised bloodgrove to open wounds, increased mass to transfer energy, fingerguards for thrusting, no pomel for throwing, longer for penetration to organs, double edged (1/3 can do) to ease penetration, stronger but less sharp and so. As soon the knife is more of a weapon than a tool its a "survival" knife to me.

Normaly i see the term survival in regards to knifes not as in surviving in nature but surviving in enemy territorie! not spending time to find food prepare camp and cook while chilling with a pipe you carved and smoke some herbs you found wich is pretty much what i like to do oposit being hunted and fighting.

 

[ged]

If I had to choose just one item I'd take my trusty Tramontina machete. Eight quid brand new, it's done loads of work and it's still going strong with only minor damage apart from seven or eight years ago a large dog chewed the handle quite badly. You can see a little bit of the handle here:

http://www.jubileegroup.co.uk/JOS/misc/guido_chewing.jpg

The reason for my choice is quite simple. If I don't know where I'm going to need to walk out from, I want to be able to hack my way through all kinds of vegetation if I have to; or as another poster said, maybe clear an area (or three, to send a signal). That's a lot more effort with a small blade. You can prepare food with a big blade, even if it is a bit awkward.

What's behind the question?

 

[poddle]

What's a bush craft knife and what is a survival knife?

Are they both not "just a knife"

I don't like the saw bits and stuff on a so called survival knife, a flat blade is all you need.

 

[Siberianfury]

What's a bush craft knife and what is a survival knife?

Are they both not "just a knife"

I don't like the saw bits and stuff on a so called survival knife, a flat blade is all you need.

Bushcraft knife:
woodlore
puukko
northwest
and similar types of knives

survival knife:
Fallkniven A1
KaBar
Mod Survival knife

Survival knives tend to be mainly used for chopping, bushcraft knives for cutting.

 

[poddle]

Given an ultimatum I would take a straight flat blade, It can be batoned if extra clout is needed.

 

[ananix]

Bushcraft knife:
woodlore
puukko
northwest
and similar types of knives

survival knife:
Fallkniven A1
KaBar
Mod Survival knife

Survival knives tend to be mainly used for chopping, bushcraft knives for cutting.

But the questioner specificly writes F1 not A1, a total bushcraft knive in my head, i agree the A1 is a survival knife in my head, primarily fit for chopping (slashing) and fighting but can work for bushcraft as well. The others its the otherway around.