Survival tin --- what should a good one contain?

[crazydave]

matches have saved more lives than mobile phones. its best to relegate all technology to the bottom of the rucksack and take more care.

its those idiots who rely on the gps to tell them where to go as they cant read a map that take the biscuit. I see plenty of muppets out there whose idea of preperation is mobile phone and credit card.

the only technology I take to rely on is my mp3 player or dab for company

 

[Graham_S]

A "survival tin" should be location specific.
You should design it with the area you'll be travelling in mind.
A modular kit is a good idea with different priorities per module.
I have a repair kit, a fire kit, a food kit a shelter kit, and a water kit.
I can change each module around depending on where I am going to be.
I'm not a fan of sealed survival kits, you should be familiar with your kit, how it works and what condition it is in.
It's the same as with a first aid kit. It's no good for you if you don't know how to use it.

 

[rik_uk3]

matches have saved more lives than mobile phones. its best to relegate all technology to the bottom of the rucksack and take more care.

its those idiots who rely on the gps to tell them where to go as they cant read a map that take the biscuit. I see plenty of muppets out there whose idea of preperation is mobile phone and credit card.

the only technology I take to rely on is my mp3 player or dab for company

Some of thats a bit harsh Dave, I agree 100% about maps first GPS second, but mobile phones are a valid survival aid in most of the UK anyway, a credit card can come in handy, say you forget or loose some kit at the start of the journey, the card can replace the kit, or maybe book into accommodation if needed, or get you car repaired to get you home etc afterall how much cash do you carry? enough for a car fix? The MP3 and FM/shortwave radio are essential though, bit of led zep or Radio 4 news etc

PS, lots of muppets humping great bags kit around the woods they don't need as well?

 

[crazydave]

yep I agree probably a bit harsh but better more kit than not enough. I've carried wetproofs in summer and wondered why then other days I've passed people up kinder scout wearing nothing but denim.

as to phones the only people i know who can get a signal anywhere are mulder and scully. if you seal it up to water and shock proof it then it has a use but too many people use them like security blankets checking for txts every ten minutes. plus if you are in a diffy area the constant handshake seeking will flatten the battery.

gps wise - they arent accurate enough - a bloke fell off snowdon (I think but could have been ben nevis) because he couldnt accurately plot his route down by following the little arrow on the screen. you may as well take a tomtom with you and you know that they are often 50m plus out. plus they arent perfect and can be whited out by low cloud or high valleys. military spec ones are accurate to 6 feet or better the civvy ones you're lucky if it gets you withing your 6 fig grid. walking two weeks ago and a bloke used his phone to log the waypoints asit had a gps chip. I was a bit sceptical but on the trip he didn't check it once. using the phone as a gps though will flatten the battery even quicker.

anyway now I'm that age the extra kit equals more calories burnt so looser trousers or more pies

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

My guess is that the whistle is only useful if there are people around to hear you. I would always carry one in the UK as it is a good way of attracting attention, for example if you fell and broke your leg while fell walking. Though this is ‘annoying ‘, it is hardly life threatening if you’re wearing the right clothes, carrying your pack and told someone where you were going and what time you'd be back.

You are likely to fall 'off the normal' route up a hill. If you break your leg, it's likely you will get shock, especially if it's cold. Remember most hypothemia cases are when it's above freezing and wet n windy. Of course Joe Simpson (Touching the Void) and the chap that cut his broken and jammed arm in the Utah canyons were/are the exceptions !

I don't think you cite a good example. Maybe a PLB and a mobile will help as well as the usual, as you say, a whistle.

Nick

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

gps wise - they arent accurate enough - a bloke fell off snowdon (I think but could have been ben nevis) because he couldnt accurately plot his route down by following the little arrow on the screen. you may as well take a tomtom with you and you know that they are often 50m plus out. plus they arent perfect and can be whited out by low cloud or high valleys. military spec ones are accurate to 6 feet or better the civvy ones you're lucky if it gets you withing your 6 fig grid. walking two weeks ago and a bloke used his phone to log the waypoints asit had a gps chip. I was a bit sceptical but on the trip he didn't check it once. using the phone as a gps though will flatten the battery even quicker.

I think that you may be a tad inaccurate with the GPS stuff, they tend to get very accurate readings, especially up mountains on ridges etc as the line of sight is better for more GPS Fixes, especially DGPS. Clouds don't effect gps reception. My new phone coming tomorrow has Assisted and GPS standalone. With WAAS and EGNOS.

Walking on a bearing is as small to see/read as a GPS screen. The cold makes my Etrex Cammo display slow down. GPS are acurate and handy, to backup a covered map and decent compass. Although up here compasses can be way out on certain hills, whereas magnetic rocks don't effect a GPS. I have done over 146 Munros, only the ones near Laggan etc had no signal, orange, for text or call.

Nick

 

[SimonM]

I have GPS and often get accuracy to 5m...thats better than my map reading.

But I only use as a back up, it usually lives in my rucksac and I navigate with map & compass.

Never carried a survival tin myself... but then I do all my roaming in the UK and tell people where I am going.

Simon

 

[crazydave]

military gps is 6 feet civvy ones is 50 if you are lucky as they might give you a better fix but its not deliberate just random luck. stick a bag on your head then go up striding edge and then see how accurate they are

thats why the europeans are wanting to send up a local version. so the americans cant de sensitise it or turn it off at will.

 

[jungle_re]

military gps is 6 feet civvy ones is 50 if you are lucky as they might give you a better fix but its not deliberate just random luck. stick a bag on your head then go up striding edge and then see how accurate they are

thats why the europeans are wanting to send up a local version. so the americans cant de sensitise it or turn it off at will.

Sorry but thats absolute drivil.

GPS accuracy is dependant on a huge number of varribles, 5mm can be acheived with L1/L2 diffientional GPS obs post processed. Navagation receivers varry on th4e technology used. The amercian have now stopped SA (seletive availibity) and code only will give arround 10m the same as is quoted for encrypted militay y code although they retain the right to alter this at any time although now ublikely as the civil safty issues involved. Even without using duel frequency or RTK (real time kinematic which will give you approx 15mm P and 20mm in H), SBAS systems (Egnos etc) and other land based DGPS (such as the old maritime transmitters) with give an approx accuracy to about 1m.

GPS is suspect to environmental issue such as mutlipath, signal polarity change, GDOP, sun spots and iono interference.
GPS is a navigation tool and is no subsitute for a map and a compass but enougher highly usefull tool for the navigator.

 

[jungle_re]

Galileo (the european system) if it ever gets fully operational is primarily designed and a suplementary system to GPS, GLONASS or COMPASS (China) which now function together within recievers labeled as GNSS. Its a civil system design to be used as a varriety of subsribted services of varring accuracy for European use (as the sats are possition to best function only Europe)

 

[crazydave]

Sorry but thats absolute drivil.

GPS accuracy is dependant on a huge number of varribles, 5mm can be acheived with L1/L2 diffientional GPS obs post processed. Navagation receivers varry on th4e technology used. The amercian have now stopped SA (seletive availibity) and code only will give arround 10m the same as is quoted for encrypted militay y code although they retain the right to alter this at any time although now ublikely as the civil safty issues involved. Even without using duel frequency or RTK (real time kinematic which will give you approx 15mm P and 20mm in H), SBAS systems (Egnos etc) and other land based DGPS (such as the old maritime transmitters) with give an approx accuracy to about 1m.

GPS is suspect to environmental issue such as mutlipath, signal polarity change, GDOP, sun spots and iono interference.
GPS is a navigation tool and is no subsitute for a map and a compass but enougher highly usefull tool for the navigator.

sounds like an advert.

black out the car windows, go out at 4am and drive purely on gps then tell me how much the damage will cost. it is not reliable enough to give positive fix. striding edge should be high enough to give you the alleged 15mm accuracy but I bet you fall off. a motorcycle on a dyno can get to 180mph but only manage 135 on the road, operational variables.

naval, aerial or ground version regardless of the antennae are not capable of consistant accurate readings unless you stand there for three days waiting for a fix and take an average.. add that to map discrepancies from the OS surveyors and it spells trouble. if you're lucky it may be accurate enough to count as an 8 figure grid reference which is accurate enough for a mortar barrage but not a difficult navigation off ben nevis in failing light or white out. I tried some of the early supposedly super accurate ones back in '90 and cant say I was impressed. the new ones are lighter, less power hungry and a usefull tool there's even the ability to have an OS version of tomtom on your mobile phone sounds good but your battery fails you lose navigation and the ability to ring for help even if you had a signal.

sea, road or air I think its great but you still rely on your eyes to make the final decision and parking arrangements. in addition to a map and compass which you allready know how to use then great but without basic mapwork its like playing a flight similator and thinking you can fly for real.

 

[Tadpole]

Most GPS are accurate to within a 1 metre Circular Error Probability 50% of the time,
within a 2.5 meter (Circular Error Probability) 68% of the time
and with in a 3 metre (Circular Error Probability) 99.7% of the time.
All under ideal conditions. Open sky no signal reflection, and using maximum satellites (five or more) and using both new systems of enhancements.
So if you are under cover or in a deep valley, in the rain or mist, surrounded by building or lots of snow. Your GPS will be less accurate than the same unit will be “under ideal conditions”
Where as a paper map will, along with a compass that you know how to use, put you on the money.

 

[jungle_re]

sounds like an advert.

black out the car windows, go out at 4am and drive purely on gps then tell me how much the damage will cost. it is not reliable enough to give positive fix. striding edge should be high enough to give you the alleged 15mm accuracy but I bet you fall off. a motorcycle on a dyno can get to 180mph but only manage 135 on the road, operational variables.

naval, aerial or ground version regardless of the antennae are not capable of consistant accurate readings unless you stand there for three days waiting for a fix and take an average.. add that to map discrepancies from the OS surveyors and it spells trouble. if you're lucky it may be accurate enough to count as an 8 figure grid reference which is accurate enough for a mortar barrage but not a difficult navigation off ben nevis in failing light or white out. I tried some of the early supposedly super accurate ones back in '90 and cant say I was impressed. the new ones are lighter, less power hungry and a usefull tool there's even the ability to have an OS version of tomtom on your mobile phone sounds good but your battery fails you lose navigation and the ability to ring for help even if you had a signal.

sea, road or air I think its great but you still rely on your eyes to make the final decision and parking arrangements. in addition to a map and compass which you allready know how to use then great but without basic mapwork its like playing a flight similator and thinking you can fly for real.

Advert no, knowleadge based yes; your last comments on Nav are valid however the remarks about GPS are not. My background is Military Survey (Royal School of Military Survey) which amongst other things are responsible for teaching MR and Nav instructors for the rest of the Army as well as the knowleadge centre for all that is GI. I have installed CORS (RTK) networkes GPS systems (Which formed part of my thesis) and currently run a Land Survey company. If i could not statisically prove the accuracy of the position i produced i would not be in buisness very long.

GPS is a technology and you shouldnt use such sweeping statement with regards to accuracy. 90's receivers and (the more common type) satnav are a completly different kettle of fish to that of DGPS and SBAS systems, thw way they work is fundermentaly different; its like coparing a mobile phone to a Cray super computer. Also cicil manufactures back in the 90's were bad for inflating the accuracy figures of the recievers (standard models with SA on would only be reliable to 100m) due to the standard trasformation used based on an old DoD 3 parameter shift, using static obs which will give you a repeatable 5-10mm accuracy (survey grade l1/l2 receivers) this shfit in comparison to a Moledensky 7 parameter shift from WGS84 to OSTM02 &OSGM02 in the M figure. Your reliability concerns are unfounded, the system is fairly robust that why its used now in more than a hand full of safety critical area.

As with a map and compass a GPS receiver is only an aid to navigation and not the single solution. You should also bear in mind the accuracy of your mapping as standard OS 50K is only accurate to 100m. I dont buy into fancy background mapping an the like for Nav i use my Nav grade receiver to provide a coord and it will do far quick and to a higher accuracy than any man by resection or intersection.

 

[jungle_re]

PS sorry for the thread hyjack guys

 

[rik_uk3]

PS sorry for the thread hyjack guys

Great thread and information, many thanks, wish I understood it all but I get the drift

The bottom line is that if your on a mountain and can't see your hand in front of you STOP, no real point in the risk of going on IMHO, take stock of the situation and seek or make shelter safely.

 

[squantrill]

black out the car windows, go out at 4am and drive purely on gps then tell me how much the damage will cost. it is not reliable enough to give positive fix. striding edge should be high enough to give you the alleged 15mm accuracy but I bet you fall off. a motorcycle on a dyno can get to 180mph but only manage 135 on the road, operational variables.

Try the same thing with a compass and a map put a bag on your head and hold a map in one hand a compass in the other bet you do more damage.

I think the point is it that the equipment is a navigational aid!!

I use both map+ compass and i have a gps as a backup. This I always carry especially when I go kayaking. Most of the time I dont use either!! I use dead rekoning positive identification and common sense.

I agree that you shouldnt rely on any; or of the navigational tools.

But lets face it they are here, and they are going to stay if you don't like gps systems then don't use them.
Incedently wire up a gps reciever to a aprs sending device and you can send your position back o a recieving station so if you do get lost and knocked out somebody has a chance of finding you of course they would be out by a few meters!! but they stand a better chance of finding you (try that with a map and compass )
Simon

 

[crazydave]

agreed using a map a compass with your head in a bag would be madness, but it would probably force you to stop being daft and find somewhere to bed down till the weather cleared and make a brew from your survival stuff.

navigation aid yes, sustitute nope. having a similar conversation elsewhere with someone who admits he cant read a map so we are advising him to learn.

main thing is though to get the thread back on track is that a gps will probably not fit in a baccy tin

 

[rik_uk3]

agreed using a map a compass with your head in a bag would be madness, but it would probably force you to stop being daft and find somewhere to bed down till the weather cleared and make a brew from your survival stuff.

navigation aid yes, sustitute nope. having a similar conversation elsewhere with someone who admits he cant read a map so we are advising him to learn.

main thing is though to get the thread back on track is that a gps will probably not fit in a baccy tin

Can't fit four tins of stella in a baccy tin, another reason I won't carry one

 

[Scots_Charles_River]

A gecko unit can fit in a baccy tin, so can a small Smartphone. Just like a firesteel, just like a brass wire, just like a commando saw, just like steritabs, it's a progression from another technology.

Don't discount it, use it if available.

Now then, just thought about adding a MRE heater sleeve to your kit, very small.

Nick

 

[crazydave]

okay if you carry a pouch meal as an emergency ration. otherwise you cant use it as a body warmer or drink the contents. you could make a hot water bottle as long as you didn't screw the top down and blow yourself up