Not really - you can live perfectly well without it. It's not a case of 'supposed', more of a choice of whether you want to or not.
Should We Eat Meat?
- Thread starter santaman2000
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And for those short of arm and deep of pocket, it's a hell of a lot cheaper being a veggie! Leaves more cash to spend on trips and kit. Hurrah!
Its how we have evolved. Before we farmed, we hunted and gathered. Both meat and plants/berries etc were essential parts of out diet. Our teeth are set up to eat meat as well as vegetables, that says enough to me. 
Only if you grow your own, you need to eat more vegetables to get your daily calorific intake, if you want good veggies you either buy organic or grow your own, organic veg is more expensive.
We have 7 allotments, we grow our own veg/fruit, raise livestock and eat lots of eggs. None of that genetically modified supermarket tat.
We have 7 allotments, we grow our own veg/fruit, raise livestock and eat lots of eggs. None of that genetically modified supermarket tat.
Its how we have evolved. Before we farmed, we hunted and gathered. Both meat and plants/berries etc were essential parts of out diet. Our teeth are set up to eat meat as well as vegetables, that says enough to me.
And, if you believe in evolution, we are still evolving. The human being is perhaps the most adaptable creature on earth. Furthermore, just because we evolved that way (1000s of years ago), that doesn't actually mean it is the way we have to be. We have choice. That's my point.
And that is most definitely true. But, it needs time and land and I guess not everyone has those. I couldn't agree more with your comments on calorific intake and the benefits of growing your own. I try a few herbs and veggies in my limited space and I realise how difficult it would be to feed myself on only what I could grow. However, I think it would still be cheaper to eat good veggies than good meat.
For me, the rearing of animals is vitally important for the environment. Vegetable farming is hugely destructive - have a good look at a vegetable field - nothing grows there but one crop, no insects, no "weeds", nothing. The soil is completely denuded of nutrition and organic binding material - indeed it can only grow crops through the massive injection of nitrates. Intensive vegetable farming - which is where most vegetables come from - is every bit as destructive as intensive animal farming - from an ecological standpoint more so. Nature requires an ecosystem - not an insect, mammal and bird free monoculture desert. It is certainly worth considering that good open pasture with "weeds", hedges, insects, birds and wild mammals is a far more ecologically sound and biodiverse environment than a vegetable field that only supports any life because it is regularly dosed with toxins and chemicals.
On paper, meat is a luxury item - it's an inefficient way to derive calories. In reality it's a pretty good way of turning marginal land into protein. Unfortunately that's not how most of our meat is derived.
I do have an issue with killing things. I worked as a fisherman for many years and am responsible for ending many tiny fishy lives. Last weekend I was freediving off Dornoch and I saw a quite magnificent lobster scuttling about on the sea floor. He was an impressive specimen, and would have taken some wrestling mano o mano in his own environment, but my real issue was that I didn't want to kill him. I decided I preferred to watch his behaviour for a bit and then leave him be.
Similarly, I had plans to take local rabbit for the pot, but the closer I got to committing the act of killing - the less I wanted to do it.
I still eat meat - I consider that quite hypocritical. I'm either going to have to go out and start killing things and eating them, or give up meat altogether.
I do have an issue with killing things. I worked as a fisherman for many years and am responsible for ending many tiny fishy lives. Last weekend I was freediving off Dornoch and I saw a quite magnificent lobster scuttling about on the sea floor. He was an impressive specimen, and would have taken some wrestling mano o mano in his own environment, but my real issue was that I didn't want to kill him. I decided I preferred to watch his behaviour for a bit and then leave him be.
Similarly, I had plans to take local rabbit for the pot, but the closer I got to committing the act of killing - the less I wanted to do it.
I still eat meat - I consider that quite hypocritical. I'm either going to have to go out and start killing things and eating them, or give up meat altogether.
I'd say that depends more on location than choice. Lets remove the supermarket from the equation, you would find it very difficult to be a veggie in our climate, same across the more northern and southern parts of the world. The places that have winters. Its only supermarkets that allow veggies to eat for 4 or 5 months of the year when no plants would be there to feed you. So i hope our contiuned evolution as you call it does not depend on the supermarkets or we are as good as dead
As the rearing of animals is equally - if not more so destructive - then we're stuck. For examples, cows are monocrops too, are they not? Ecologically, the impact of animal methane on the environment could also be said to be destructive on quite a large scale, as would be the manufacture of feed and use of antibiotics, etc, much in the same way we are dependent on weedkillers and fertilisers for crops.
Each method has its pros and cons and now we're missing the point. I'm not trying to say that one way is right and one way is wrong: we're talking about balance. The idea is that we could reduce how much we eat and also redress a balance in our diets between meat products and vegetable/grain products. I'm not trying to stop anyone from eating anything. Yes, a wild meadow looks lovely but doesn't feed the population. It's a compromise.
Anyway, my point was that I wished more people thought about where their food actually came from and hoped more people would think about the preservation of environment so we could all enjoy some nice things to eat well into the future. I still stand by that and I still stand by personal choice.
I'd say that depends more on location than choice. Lets remove the supermarket from the equation, you would find it very difficult to be a veggie in our climate, same across the more northern and southern parts of the world. The places that have winters. Its only supermarkets that allow veggies to eat for 4 or 5 months of the year when no plants would be there to feed you. So i hope our contiuned evolution as you call it does not depend on the supermarkets or we are as good as dead
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No, because cows add natural nutrients to the fields they inhabit, those fields have a diversity of life, both flora and fauna, which also add to the soil. The soil is the most important thing on this planet, well, as important as water anyway. Proper soil husbandry is essential for the continued survival of all land and air species. Thats why intensive crop monocultures are so destructive. They take no heed of the soils needs, they take from while not adding to.
The soil is the most important thing on this planet, well, as important as water anyway. Proper soil husbandry is essential for the continued survival of all land and air species. Thats why intensive crop monocultures are so destructive. They take no heed of the soils needs, they take from while not adding to.
I don't disagree that people should know about their food Mike - but cows most certainly aren't monoculture - they live predominantly on pasture and they return that pasture to the ground in the form of manure enriching the ground as they do it. I live in one of the main vegetable farming areas of the UK. Soil erosion here is over 10 tonnes, per acre, per year. Why? Because its vegetable farmed, no animal manure is returned to the ground which is a light clay / loam. In dry weather, the soil simply blows away (and out to sea). My own vegetable growing is done in a more natural way with manured beds and they suffer from no such problems - indeed the soil is teeming with worms and insect life. I don't need artificial fertilisers, nor do I spray for insects - I use barrier technology and companion planting as seen here
Brussel Sprouts by British Red, on Flickr
The animals supplying the manure aren't shot up with antibiotics either - but they, like my vegetables, are not intensively reared. They probably do produce methane - much as the grazing herds of bison and antelope do in other ecosystems
Normans Cattle by British Red, on Flickr
This I think is my point - animals are not a luxury - they are a necessary part of an integrated, non intense, food rearing system. Guess how much life is supported by this field?
Potato Field by British Red, on Flickr
I would love to see a return to the less intense farming of fruit, vegetables, meat and dairy. That would though mean far less people - which is another topic entirely and probably too political for here.
Red
Apart from the Milk, meat, leather, fat, horn I guess they probably are. Fertiliser is the only crop they produce.
As a former cattle farmer (and I currently lease my land to a cattle farmer) I can say that erosion is more often caused by cattle hooves than by ploughed ground. Neither is condusive to stabilized soil but hooves cut up the soil relentlessly, particularly around the areas where they ford or wade into a stream or pond to drink.
It's also an inefficient way to hunt deer. The preferred method in the South is to have a driver with a couple of dogs drive them out of their daytime beds while standers wait for a running shot.
The second preferred method in the South (and the first preferred method on the rest of the continent) is for a lone hunter to set up a stand along a deer trail and wait.
I'd like to see anybody that lived in an urban environment try to survive without supermarkets or shops for a whole winter be it meat eater or veggie, I think both would have a hard time if they didn't prepare properly. But if you had enough land to grow sufficient stocks of vegetables and fruit I don't see why it wouldn't be possible if you preserved, pickled and stored them properly to see you through.I'd say that depends more on location than choice. Lets remove the supermarket from the equation, you would find it very difficult to be a veggie in our climate, same across the more northern and southern parts of the world. The places that have winters. Its only supermarkets that allow veggies to eat for 4 or 5 months of the year when no plants would be there to feed you. So i hope our contiuned evolution as you call it does not depend on the supermarkets or we are as good as dead
I think there will always be a place for meat within our diet, should we choose to eat meat as part of a balanced diet. However we need to look at how much meat we now consume as individuals & be prepared to pay more for the meat. Hopefully, with the increased price of meat we buy, animal welfare and farming methods should be improved. Supporting smaller farmers to produce and sell locally. Here is a article I found a few weeks ago, It has some very interesting observations.
Please take the time to look and form your own view. http://www.worldwatch.org/node/549
Please take the time to look and form your own view. http://www.worldwatch.org/node/549
