Litter in Scotland is terrible. In contrast, just got back from the Lakes for a few days - hardly a scrap in sight. I sometimes wonder what is wrong with some of the people who live in this beautiful wild country.
Respect...
- Thread starter Xunil
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resnikov
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
While I do agree with some of Xunil's opening comments you have to give some slack to people who may be new to being in the great wide open. Learing how to act takes time and can only be learned by doing. I'm noticing the more I go out and camp the better my planning of my camp and kit is getting. I'm taking more care of my kit, first few times it looked like my bag had exploded, but now it dosn't.
I'm going out on a limb here but I would guess that not every one who goes out in to the woods/hills etc wants the same thing. Some would want the solitude, peace and quite while others might want to feel they are getting back to nature with a fire, others just like being out doors but want to be able to read a book at night and use head torch.
So I would say if you want to do somthign inparticular outdoors make sure the people you invite with you want to do the same thing.
As for litter that gets on my goat too, been picking it up for ages when out geocaching Cache In, Trash Out.
I'm going out on a limb here but I would guess that not every one who goes out in to the woods/hills etc wants the same thing. Some would want the solitude, peace and quite while others might want to feel they are getting back to nature with a fire, others just like being out doors but want to be able to read a book at night and use head torch.
So I would say if you want to do somthign inparticular outdoors make sure the people you invite with you want to do the same thing.
As for litter that gets on my goat too, been picking it up for ages when out geocaching Cache In, Trash Out.
A study done in a swedish city revealed that, when a person holding a piece of litter sees a rubish bin, the maximum distance that a person will go out of their way is 18m. Any further then that and it is dropped in situ. The study also showed a correlation between the likelyhood of a person littering and the amount of litter already there.
Also, in my job, part of which is managing nature reservs, we have found that putting up a rubbish bin which isn't meticulously kept increases littering. If it is full or has litter spilled around it people will just drop their litter on the ground. Take the bin away and people bring their litter home with them. Psychology...
Also, in my job, part of which is managing nature reservs, we have found that putting up a rubbish bin which isn't meticulously kept increases littering. If it is full or has litter spilled around it people will just drop their litter on the ground. Take the bin away and people bring their litter home with them. Psychology...
Like many others here, litter makes me so mad. I walk the dog on Hampstead heath several times a week and recently, especially with the hot weather, the mess left by picnics and evening parties is appalling. What makes it worse is that the heath is covered with litter bins, you see mess just a few yards from the bins. I make a point of picking up what I come across but it doesn't alleviate my anger.
Its the "someone will take responsibility for our mess" attitude rather than taking responsibility for themselves which is most depressing.
I think they are so detached from the outdoors that they view it simply as a resource to be used when the weather is right, an alternative party venue and have no thought for its existence outside the small amount of time they spend there.
Its the "someone will take responsibility for our mess" attitude rather than taking responsibility for themselves which is most depressing.
I think they are so detached from the outdoors that they view it simply as a resource to be used when the weather is right, an alternative party venue and have no thought for its existence outside the small amount of time they spend there.
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A classic example of misuse of our beautiful countryside is Loch Lomond. I used to stay only a few miles away and thought of it as my back garden and treated it as such. Now camping is to be banned on the east side of the loch due to , here we go big sigh..... litter lots of litter, damaged trees, lots and lots of damaged trees, burt out cars, tents, old bbqs, rival groups fighting each other, vandalising cars, oh and did i mention litter? broken glass in the loch, dog s**t on the beaches.
Granted it is not everyone who contributes to this, but neverless only a few brave souls tidy up after them. It is a real shame to see families having to pack up and leave Loch Lomond due to the moronic behaviour of others.
The real shame is taht when the camping ban comes into force, the moronic hoards will probably invade some where else and destroy that place as well.... Rant over unless some one has a cure for moronic selfish activites..
Ally
Granted it is not everyone who contributes to this, but neverless only a few brave souls tidy up after them. It is a real shame to see families having to pack up and leave Loch Lomond due to the moronic behaviour of others.
The real shame is taht when the camping ban comes into force, the moronic hoards will probably invade some where else and destroy that place as well.... Rant over unless some one has a cure for moronic selfish activites..
Ally
I think there's something in this. I have noticed how my habits have changed the more time I spend out in woodland. My fires are smaller and suitable to the purpose at hand. If I don't need a fire, I don't light one. My kit list is smaller as I know what I will need and what works. Generally it is more about experiencing the environment in comfort rather than bashing around being Bear Grylls.
Rant on
Litter is something I get really steamed about. I now live in Bournemouth and when I first moved down there I was looking forward to evening strolls along the beach. But you should see the state of it once the grockels have left. The beach looks like a landfill site. It's shameful. How people can turn up to pristine sand in the morning and leave it looking like a sh*t-tip beggars belief.
But people just don't think. We encounter the same mentality with domestic recycling. Bournemouth Council make it very easy for residents. None of those separate bins for this and that. Paper, tins, plastic bottles and glass all go loose into the one bin. But in our flats some people seem incapable of following these simple instructions resulting in the recycling bin regularly going unemptied because the load is contaminated. We (and it's usually myself or swmbo) then have to arrange with the council for the bin to be emptied by the regular refuse collectors.
Rant off.
Litter is something I get really steamed about. I now live in Bournemouth and when I first moved down there I was looking forward to evening strolls along the beach. But you should see the state of it once the grockels have left. The beach looks like a landfill site. It's shameful. How people can turn up to pristine sand in the morning and leave it looking like a sh*t-tip beggars belief.
But people just don't think. We encounter the same mentality with domestic recycling. Bournemouth Council make it very easy for residents. None of those separate bins for this and that. Paper, tins, plastic bottles and glass all go loose into the one bin. But in our flats some people seem incapable of following these simple instructions resulting in the recycling bin regularly going unemptied because the load is contaminated. We (and it's usually myself or swmbo) then have to arrange with the council for the bin to be emptied by the regular refuse collectors.
Rant off.
You're right on the whole ease of access thing.
Parkland near us at Teston is now completely trashed with disposable BBQ scarring. Strangely you can almost see a line on the hill about 500 yards along the river where they obviously can't be bothered to walk any further and the scarring and all the trash left behind stops and it gets back to normal. Had a major go at one guy who was walking off leaving a disposable BBQ burning on Saturday - I just can't understand the mentality of some people ....
He still walked off and I ended up tidying it up on my return journey.
You can take the people out of the towns but not the towns out of the people.............
It is respect and most people have lost it! I am rapidly running out of places I can just go that's at least quiet. Far too often are my trips out, even my daily dog walks are tainted from noisy kids and stupid, noisy dogs with clueless owners to straight up brazen vandalism. My heart sinks when I see certain types and I will return straight home.
That said, for an entire 4 day weekend I totally avoided the bank holiday sheepheads, townie d***headery and only saw the people I had arranged to meet, I saw many red Kites, Buzzards and other Raptors, deer and other wildlife, had tea from the kelly and played (responsibly!) with knives and shot 100's of arrows, all within a few miles of home. Perfect!
Thank goodness for Field Archery!
It is respect and most people have lost it! I am rapidly running out of places I can just go that's at least quiet. Far too often are my trips out, even my daily dog walks are tainted from noisy kids and stupid, noisy dogs with clueless owners to straight up brazen vandalism. My heart sinks when I see certain types and I will return straight home.
That said, for an entire 4 day weekend I totally avoided the bank holiday sheepheads, townie d***headery and only saw the people I had arranged to meet, I saw many red Kites, Buzzards and other Raptors, deer and other wildlife, had tea from the kelly and played (responsibly!) with knives and shot 100's of arrows, all within a few miles of home. Perfect!
Thank goodness for Field Archery!
I have a personal pet hate of people leaving behind orange peels. Ultimately they are biodegradable, but in the meantime we are left with about the most high-vis rubbish lying on the ground. I know of one particular offender who always stops at the same place to eat before heading back down the mountain and in spring after the snow melts, there are bloody orange peels lying scattered all over the area. grrrrrr. /rant
I just stumbled into this thread and it looks like I'm no longer alone on this specific subject.
I even had the experience initially spoken of by Xunil, with people who consider themselves bushcrafters.
Yes, they were young, at least a lot younger then me and yes, they were kind of new to the trade, but so was I. They were loud, were tramping around like cattle on a stampede, were whacking their axes and blades at trees, for no appearant reason than just hacking and were lighting small fires, just for the fun of it, it seemed.
The older ones were a lot more quiet, moved slower and easier and spoke in low voices. I guess it might be a case of young enthusiasme...
On the other hand I am always having a dilemma; going alone is nice and quiet and you can do what you want, when you want to, but in the end you're still alone and part of the fun is sharing it, right? Or go with others, with the possibility of being annoyed by them and their habbits and them getting annoyed by me, because I like things quiet.
I even had the experience initially spoken of by Xunil, with people who consider themselves bushcrafters.
Yes, they were young, at least a lot younger then me and yes, they were kind of new to the trade, but so was I. They were loud, were tramping around like cattle on a stampede, were whacking their axes and blades at trees, for no appearant reason than just hacking and were lighting small fires, just for the fun of it, it seemed.
The older ones were a lot more quiet, moved slower and easier and spoke in low voices. I guess it might be a case of young enthusiasme...
On the other hand I am always having a dilemma; going alone is nice and quiet and you can do what you want, when you want to, but in the end you're still alone and part of the fun is sharing it, right? Or go with others, with the possibility of being annoyed by them and their habbits and them getting annoyed by me, because I like things quiet.
The last time I challenged someone over dropping litter his neanderthal-sized parent loomed over me and growled "'E'll drop it if e wannoo". (Broad south-Walian dialect)
It seemed prudent to back down at that point. Made me angry for the rest of the day though.
It seemed prudent to back down at that point. Made me angry for the rest of the day though.
har har, that's quite funny.
Someone told me once that banana skins *dont* biodegrade very well in our climate. Imagine the mess if your particular offender ate bananas instead!
Had a few similar incidents but me being either a bit thick or just ignorant dont back down to them. Usually end up being sarcastic or offensive to the degree that there not sure how to respond and walk off mumbleing to themselves. Helps being a big lad too i suppose.
People who pick up dog poo, bag it and leave it up trees or on a fence is why I'm not allowed to carry a gun any more.
People who shout into their mobiles in the middle of a nesting area go on that list too.
And if I ever find the a-holes that left all those cheap cider cans at my picnic spot along with the remains of a burned out folding chair....
No Xunil, you are not alone.
I can manage to walk through the woods by my house most nights with TWO dogs and still manage to get within 10m of some Roe deer, so why is it so hard for some people to STFU when they are out and about?
Nice to be among like minded quite people though.
Courage mon braves!
People who shout into their mobiles in the middle of a nesting area go on that list too.
And if I ever find the a-holes that left all those cheap cider cans at my picnic spot along with the remains of a burned out folding chair....
No Xunil, you are not alone.
I can manage to walk through the woods by my house most nights with TWO dogs and still manage to get within 10m of some Roe deer, so why is it so hard for some people to STFU when they are out and about?
Nice to be among like minded quite people though.
Courage mon braves!
A friend and I were camping on the North East side of Loch Lomond a few weeks ago, well up past Tarbert, On Sunday morning as we were packing up I noticed something shining in the water, (empty beer can), followed by perhaps 15 to 20 others. The neds have started camping on the West side beside the road all the way up the loch side, and I guess this was their idea of cleaning up, chucking all their empties into the loch.
On a camping weekend with some jet ski mates on Lomond last year, on the last day all the rubbish that had'nt been bagged was, and was waiting for transport off the island by the ski boat they had, one group who had tagged along bagged all their rubbish, and then dropped it on the fire !!!, and were totally gobsmacked by the response they got for doing so. They just didn't get it, even after watching people spend over an hour cleaning up not only the evidence of their visit, but other peoples. A slow process to educate people, I think.
On a camping weekend with some jet ski mates on Lomond last year, on the last day all the rubbish that had'nt been bagged was, and was waiting for transport off the island by the ski boat they had, one group who had tagged along bagged all their rubbish, and then dropped it on the fire !!!, and were totally gobsmacked by the response they got for doing so. They just didn't get it, even after watching people spend over an hour cleaning up not only the evidence of their visit, but other peoples. A slow process to educate people, I think.
"4. Walking twice to the stream to collect water and then wash dishes (or vice versa) instead of making a single trip."
Xunil - you seem to be more bothered by the two trips and inefficiency of it but surely you should be more ****** off byt the fact that they are washing their plates off in the stream?? I always thought that it was good practice to wash your dishes away from water sources. Collect your water then wash dishes with it well away from water courses and lakes / tarns. Small matter I know but it all adds up to good campcraft IMHO.
As far as leave no trace and tread lightly goes I have to ask if a fire is really needed at all? That might be heresy on here but you can get good woodburners for cooking with or even hobo stoves made by your own fair hands. Why do you need a proper fire? I mean you might clear the ground before the fire and cover it up afterwards but there will still be evidence of it for all but the most conscientious campers clearing up after themselves. Plus it is always moree likely to use more resources with a rel fire. I mean you always collect too much wood and often it never fully burns unlike with a good woddburner stove which can burn highly efficiently such as the wood gasifier stoves. Those burn fully leaving very little in the way of ash due to the efficiency of fuel use. A real fire is inefficient as a wood burner leaving unburnt bits and more ash. I am not saying a fire is a bad thing but it is one more thing tpo consider if you want to reduce your impact on the countryside. BTW you might be using dead standing wood for the fire or fallen wood but even that is a resource used nby nature. Take dead standing wood it is often a habitat all of its own with anything from bugs to birds using it. Piles of dead wood is often left behind when woodland is thinned out by conservation groups for example. These are known as habitat piles since they provide shelter for a wide variety of critter. These happen to some degree in nature so taking this wood all impacts.
Making your own shelter is not necesary and TBH is it not good practise anyway to carry all that you need including your own shelter. Better than making a shelter out of natural resources.
Perhaps all these points are possibly taking things too far but I just want to point out that we are all somewhere on the line between a huge impact and no impact. We are none of us at the no impact end so perhaps it is better to help your friends to move along that line in the direction I think we all agree is the right way than sitting back and fuming at how they were being so inefficient or noisy or whatever. We all learn every day we are out doing these things. If you spot mates doing things wrong or inefficient or wasteful of resources or even if you have a better way of doing something then tell them. Don't sit on it then post on this site. Sorry if that's a bit harsh.
As far as I am concerned most of my outdoors is about moving through the landscape and nature. I carry as little gear as I can get away with so my pack is light. This means I am light with less stumbling and impact in my travelling. Then I pack everything out that I carry in. I do defacate in the countryside as I am an animal but that is done in as considerate way as possible for others and nature (at least six inches underground and paper is burnt or carried out). I always camp in one spoot for one night at a time then move on. The last thing I do is turn around and look for anything I have missed. My only evidence left behind of my stay is the compressed ground and grass from my body. I can't do anything about that but I can take away my rubbish and not leave scorched earth from fires.
BTW I might be camping out in different types of environment to most of you in that it is open fells in the Lakes. That means I have no leaf litter to cover up the fire scar if I have one. That is why I don'y use a fire. that and the fuel supply is not as easy even for wood burners (I own the honey stove but it never gets used because of this). My stove is a gas burner which TBH is not as neutral as wood might be so I admit I am not totally clear conscience in this matter. I am as efficient as you can be with it though (6 or 7 days use out of a single 100g can, beat that if you can).
Xunil - you seem to be more bothered by the two trips and inefficiency of it but surely you should be more ****** off byt the fact that they are washing their plates off in the stream?? I always thought that it was good practice to wash your dishes away from water sources. Collect your water then wash dishes with it well away from water courses and lakes / tarns. Small matter I know but it all adds up to good campcraft IMHO.
As far as leave no trace and tread lightly goes I have to ask if a fire is really needed at all? That might be heresy on here but you can get good woodburners for cooking with or even hobo stoves made by your own fair hands. Why do you need a proper fire? I mean you might clear the ground before the fire and cover it up afterwards but there will still be evidence of it for all but the most conscientious campers clearing up after themselves. Plus it is always moree likely to use more resources with a rel fire. I mean you always collect too much wood and often it never fully burns unlike with a good woddburner stove which can burn highly efficiently such as the wood gasifier stoves. Those burn fully leaving very little in the way of ash due to the efficiency of fuel use. A real fire is inefficient as a wood burner leaving unburnt bits and more ash. I am not saying a fire is a bad thing but it is one more thing tpo consider if you want to reduce your impact on the countryside. BTW you might be using dead standing wood for the fire or fallen wood but even that is a resource used nby nature. Take dead standing wood it is often a habitat all of its own with anything from bugs to birds using it. Piles of dead wood is often left behind when woodland is thinned out by conservation groups for example. These are known as habitat piles since they provide shelter for a wide variety of critter. These happen to some degree in nature so taking this wood all impacts.
Making your own shelter is not necesary and TBH is it not good practise anyway to carry all that you need including your own shelter. Better than making a shelter out of natural resources.
Perhaps all these points are possibly taking things too far but I just want to point out that we are all somewhere on the line between a huge impact and no impact. We are none of us at the no impact end so perhaps it is better to help your friends to move along that line in the direction I think we all agree is the right way than sitting back and fuming at how they were being so inefficient or noisy or whatever. We all learn every day we are out doing these things. If you spot mates doing things wrong or inefficient or wasteful of resources or even if you have a better way of doing something then tell them. Don't sit on it then post on this site. Sorry if that's a bit harsh.
As far as I am concerned most of my outdoors is about moving through the landscape and nature. I carry as little gear as I can get away with so my pack is light. This means I am light with less stumbling and impact in my travelling. Then I pack everything out that I carry in. I do defacate in the countryside as I am an animal but that is done in as considerate way as possible for others and nature (at least six inches underground and paper is burnt or carried out). I always camp in one spoot for one night at a time then move on. The last thing I do is turn around and look for anything I have missed. My only evidence left behind of my stay is the compressed ground and grass from my body. I can't do anything about that but I can take away my rubbish and not leave scorched earth from fires.
BTW I might be camping out in different types of environment to most of you in that it is open fells in the Lakes. That means I have no leaf litter to cover up the fire scar if I have one. That is why I don'y use a fire. that and the fuel supply is not as easy even for wood burners (I own the honey stove but it never gets used because of this). My stove is a gas burner which TBH is not as neutral as wood might be so I admit I am not totally clear conscience in this matter. I am as efficient as you can be with it though (6 or 7 days use out of a single 100g can, beat that if you can).
I think that although their are many out there that follow the ethics of Leave no Trace, the common popularity of bushcraft and the mass media appeal have drawn in many who see it as a cheap weekend where no one monitors their actions. The Neds will always be there but with groups like this one hopefully the education will expand and the knowledge and respect that go with it will become the common denominator.
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