Red, UK question

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mrostov

Nomad
Jan 2, 2006
410
53
59
Texas
Needing/resorting to loading airgun pellets onto a blank cartridge to 'survive' is fantasy. I know the original question was if its legal here etc etc but it stemmed from unrealistic needs.

Shortage of one calibre, use another. Don't inspire idiots to make zip guns/ammo!

No one is inspiring anyone to make a zip gun. Why make a zip gun when there are plenty of real guns? It's an alternative ammo supply for an already existing, very, very large inventory of commercially made .22 rifles that are already in private hands, both here, there, and around the world.

The recent shortage left millions of guns without a commercially available ammo supply. Rimfire ammo cannot be easily reloaded. If the supply shuts off, what you have is what you have, if you have any at all. If you have none, or you want to conserve what you have, you find an additional ammo source.

This alternative ammo for existing .22LR rimfire rifles, using industrial .22 blanks and .22 airgun pellets, is safe when used in a commercially made firearm, it doesn't harm the rifle, and it works surprisingly well. In fact, in many ways the ballistics can be superior to many .22LR loads. When fired out of a .22LR rifle barrel with a yellow tip blank, the speed on a .22 pellet is approaching the velocity of a .22 Hornet. Furthermore, the pellets seem to be adequately stabilized and they are relatively accurate. You can vary the loads with different pellet weights and styles and with different strength blanks.

I'm actually pondering getting a break action Rossi single shot just so I can more easily use these loads in a dedicated .22LR rifle with a scope. I can use then in my 10/22 and I have a tool bent at 90 degrees that I use to push the pellet into the rifling. Walmart sells this really neat set that is a Rossi single shot with a weather resistant coating and easy change barrels in .22LR and .410 for $170.

Take heed, because at some point this could easily happen everywhere for a number of reasons. Look at it this way. We have, in private, civilian hands, 60% of the world's small arms. If we can run out of ammo, I guarantee that at some point, you can run out of ammo, given the right political, social, and economic climate.

BTW, during the shortage, there were often no other calibers available, except for shotgun shells, primarily 12ga, and air rifle pellets, even if you went out and bought another rifle. There was also a massive run on reloading supplies.

Survival is not a fantasy. In times of crisis even a small amount of hunted game can make a huge difference, and for hunting almost any firearm is superior to pretty much anything else. The native tribes in the New World knew this the first time they saw a musket.

During a food crisis, any amount of extra food can be significant. For example, during the Great Depression in the USA, hunting accounted for 1/4 to 1/3 of the food supply for the average rural family. There wasn't nearly as much wild game then as there is now. During a severe food crisis, which can easily happen, even a single extra rabbit every day or two can make a significant difference.

Improvised ammo was used a lot back then, especially 12ga wax slugs and cut shells which allowed the killing of a deer with an ordinary, inexpensive bird shot load. A wax slug is minute of deer accurate out to about 50 yards. For those that aren't familiar with the term, a wax slug is where they would cut the crimp off of the end of the shell, pour out the shot into a pot with melted wax, such as from a candle, and the shot mixed with melted wax would then be spooned back into the shell and allowed to cool and harden. A cut shell is where they would take a knife and cut through the shell casing around the circumference of the shell, at the location of the middle of the wad, leaving only a small tab or two holding the shell together. When fired, the entire front of the shell flies down range as a single projectile. Cut shells have issues, they can come apart in your barrel, and are not recommended with any kind of choke except cylinder bore.
 
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Goatboy

Full Member
Jan 31, 2005
14,956
17
Scotland
Yup I think it's right that we keep the discussion about firearms legal.
What would be interesting to find out is the legality of coming into a British post in a yacht with one on board? I know that a lot of ocean sailors keep a firearm on board, but I don't know of the legality of tying up in a UK port with one on board. Is that why the OP was asking about availability over here? So he could restock if sailing the waves whilst here?
 

slowworm

Full Member
May 8, 2008
2,025
976
Devon
The recent shortage left millions of guns without a commercially available ammo supply. Rimfire ammo cannot be easily reloaded. If the supply shuts off, what you have is what you have, if you have any at all. If you have none, or you want to conserve what you have, you find an additional ammo source.

The problem with that is what happens when the alternative source also dries up? .22 blanks would seem sufficiently similar to be liable to similar supply problems - e.g. if the brass cases become hard to come by (one of the reasons for .22LR shortage was problems with the cases IIRC).

If you want to take it to extremes I would suggest a powerful spring air rifle (subject to local licensing etc) and cast your own lead bullets if that's feasible.
 

mrcharly

Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Jan 25, 2011
3,257
44
North Yorkshire, UK
Walmart sells this really neat set that is a Rossi single shot with a weather resistant coating and easy change barrels in .22LR and .410 for $170.

Sounds ideal.

Taking firearms on a sailboat is going to be an exercise in avoiding corrosion (I used to live on a boat and even on a freshwater river the damp made things corrode). I'd suggest investing in some way of storing your guns in a hermetically sealed container with rice in it (put the rice in a bag, rice dust is terrible).
 

Goatboy

Full Member
Jan 31, 2005
14,956
17
Scotland
Sounds ideal.

Taking firearms on a sailboat is going to be an exercise in avoiding corrosion (I used to live on a boat and even on a freshwater river the damp made things corrode). I'd suggest investing in some way of storing your guns in a hermetically sealed container with rice in it (put the rice in a bag, rice dust is terrible).

On that theme though maybe not great on a boat I used to have a low watt old fashioned (non-energy saver) light bulb on permanently in my gun cabinet. (As well as other anti corrosion things) The gentle heat built up and drove off moisture.
 

mrostov

Nomad
Jan 2, 2006
410
53
59
Texas
Yup I think it's right that we keep the discussion about firearms legal.
What would be interesting to find out is the legality of coming into a British post in a yacht with one on board? I know that a lot of ocean sailors keep a firearm on board, but I don't know of the legality of tying up in a UK port with one on board. Is that why the OP was asking about availability over here? So he could restock if sailing the waves whilst here?

Actually, no, it wasn't about restocking ammo in the UK. It had to do with a discussion I was having about it being a viable option for people in Europe in general during an ammo shortage, Britain in particular. From the looks of it the adapters are a fizzle in the UK, but the blank and pellet option could serve as an alternate ammo source for legally owned weapons.

In some of the places I like to go, Latin America with Mexico being a close destination (I live only about 120 miles from Mexico), the adapters are legally just a piece of pipe and airguns have the legal status of a non-weapon. Mexico is the worst at when it comes to guns, unless you have a Mexican hunting license. They are one of the few countries that won't conform to international standards and they will simply arrest you, even if you declare them, unless you have the proper permits in advance, such as a Mexican hunting license.

For me having a shotgun on board is for both security and for sporting purposes. There are some places in Latin America that have absolutely fantastic hunting, especially bird hunting.

While the threat of piracy is overblown (with a couple of exceptions around the world) if you travel the Caribbean or near the South American coast, especially Venezuela nowadays, bringing a shotgun of some sort and some buckshot is generally a pretty good idea. Most bad guys out on the water are moonlighting fishermen, and not there to take casualties. Latin American governments and societies are also overall still very keen on the idea of using a gun in self defense. If the bad guys approach you and they see you are armed, they almost always back off. A flare gun, however, just doesn't cut it.

Most countries will seal your weapon in your customs locker if you have one, or they will hold them at impound at the port of entry. Some countries you can get permission to keep them accessible.

Europe is another Gordian knot on legalities. IIRC, as a non-citizen visiting the UK in a yacht, the authorities will seal your guns in a customs locker if you have one that is up to their standards (through bolts in a bulkhead, etc). They don't want that locker opened or easily detached. Otherwise, with no customs locker, they impound them at the port of entry for the duration of your stay.

Most countries also want to see that you legally own the guns and that the guns were legal in their home ports. Basically they want to see your gun license and/or registration paperwork for the guns. THAT is where Americans tend to get into a bind, because for the most part we don't have gun licenses or gun registration. Only a very few states have registration or permits. For example, in Texas, the only license I need for anything is to carry a handgun concealed, and that license is also good for concealed carry in about three dozen other states. In theory, you used to be able to get by if you had the sales receipt from where you bought the gun, but most places don't like to see that now.

What I do is I register my guns with US Customs. It's a US Government form allowing me to leave the country with firearms and bring them back in without having to apply to formally import them. Big game hunters with their expensive rifles, for example, will often use that form. This is the kind of paper trail foreign officials want to see.

Another thing that gets Americans in trouble is that in theory what is legal in your home port is what is legal to have on your boat, so people often feel it is their God given right to bring weapons that are normally only found in the hands of militaries and guerrillas. Once you leave American waters, that leads to conflict. If you are a civilian, and you have a weapon on board, it should be a civilian style of weapon. Your odds of encountering a bad guy are actually rather low. Your odds of encountering customs is about 100%. If you encounter a bad guy, a shotgun is generally more than adequate to deal with the situation.

I know this one retired couple that had the ugliest shotgun on their boat. It was a Topper 88 single shot that they spray painted signal orange, stock and everything. One thing for sure, it was never going to rust, too much paint. It was so ugly no customs official would ever want to cook up a reason to swipe it. The only reason I'm bringing two shotguns is in case Davy Jones decides to borrow one. For sporting purposes I like the break open, but in case of bad guys, I prefer the pump. If I have to make a choice and bring only one, I'll bring the pump and a couple of different barrels for it.

Corrosion was mentioned, well, the Mossberg pump is the best to handle that. It's only a $200 shotgun to begin with, the receiver is aluminum, the bolt is stainless, and stock is synthetic. that leaves a few internal parts and the barrel. I can buy a plated 'marine' barrel, I can have it's barrel plated myself, I can put one of the new, high tech coatings on it, or, I can go to Walmart, get a can of spray paint and uglify it. By and large though, I want it to look as beat up and as miserable as possible, lest some customs official puts an eye of desire to it (it is Latin America, after all). The break open, well, it gets the miserable look also. Maybe some duct tape on the stock, etc.
 
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Yup I think it's right that we keep the discussion about firearms legal.
What would be interesting to find out is the legality of coming into a British post in a yacht with one on board? I know that a lot of ocean sailors keep a firearm on board, but I don't know of the legality of tying up in a UK port with one on board. Is that why the OP was asking about availability over here? So he could restock if sailing the waves whilst here?


yes UK does allow for even Section 5 arms for anti piracy but you need to adhere to the Law for the details
 

Goatboy

Full Member
Jan 31, 2005
14,956
17
Scotland
Cheers Mrostov & FGYT,

It's good to hear what is OK and not OK in regards to entering ports. I'm not a sailor myself (we spent millennia evolving away from it, why go back;)) but my girlfiriend is and she lives out in the far east.
I don't shoot these days as I don't have the cash for it really. I still keep a rather nice airgun in the house and though I don't have to it's securely locked away.

Cheers for the informed replies.
GB.
 
Actually, no, it wasn't about restocking ammo in the UK. It had to do with a discussion I was having about it being a viable option for people in Europe in general during an ammo shortage, Britain in particular. From the looks of it the adapters are a fizzle in the UK, but the blank and pellet option could serve as an alternate ammo source for legally owned weapons.

.

Due to he limits we have on holding ammo stockpiling isn't really going to happen in UK your average Hunter may have a max of 1100 .22LR to posses at any one time (my application is asking for a limit of 600 so i can buy a box of 500 when Im down to under 100)

some practical target shooters may have a few 1000 (maybe 3-5000) but I doubt many have more

there are only 170,000 Fire arms holders in UK of all calibres i would say a lot will have .22LR
 
Cheers Mrostov & FGYT,

It's good to hear what is OK and not OK in regards to entering ports. I'm not a sailor myself (we spent millennia evolving away from it, why go back;)) but my girlfiriend is and she lives out in the far east.
I don't shoot these days as I don't have the cash for it really. I still keep a rather nice airgun in the house and though I don't have to it's securely locked away.

Cheers for the informed replies.
GB.


Home office Guidlines

Section 30 is Armed guards on UK vessels etc

​https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/329845/GuideFirearmsLicensingLawJune14.pdf
 

Goatboy

Full Member
Jan 31, 2005
14,956
17
Scotland
Home office Guidlines

Section 30 is Armed guards on UK vessels etc

​https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/329845/GuideFirearmsLicensingLawJune14.pdf
Cheers for that, I'm pretty out of the loop on firearms these days as I no longer get to shoot. Have downloaded the PDF for a read tonight, always good to keep up on these things. As I don't have a telly and rarely pick up a newspaper I was worried when the Scottish Govt. were making noises about licencing airguns that I might fall through the cracks through not hearing about it.
 

mrostov

Nomad
Jan 2, 2006
410
53
59
Texas
Due to he limits we have on holding ammo stockpiling isn't really going to happen in UK your average Hunter may have a max of 1100 .22LR to posses at any one time (my application is asking for a limit of 600 so i can buy a box of 500 when Im down to under 100)

some practical target shooters may have a few 1000 (maybe 3-5000) but I doubt many have more

there are only 170,000 Fire arms holders in UK of all calibres i would say a lot will have .22LR

Stockpiling isn't the only reason for an ammo shortage. There are a lot of other reasons it could happen. Anything that could cause it to stop being sold or to stop being made. We've had shortages before in the past, but it was generally due to the military commandeering production, not stockpiling.

My reserve stockpile of .22LR is two military .50 caliber ammo cans which currently contains a bit over 6200 rounds. I had another 30,000 rounds that I sold into the panic (hurray for capitalism). I didn't think the shortage would last as long as it did. I am getting more minimalist nowadays anyway.
 
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Cheers for that, I'm pretty out of the loop on firearms these days as I no longer get to shoot. Have downloaded the PDF for a read tonight, always good to keep up on these things. As I don't have a telly and rarely pick up a newspaper I was worried when the Scottish Govt. were making noises about licencing airguns that I might fall through the cracks through not hearing about it.

oh Scotland has passed to licence airguns regardless of overwhelming support not to
 

santaman2000

M.A.B (Mad About Bushcraft)
Jan 15, 2011
16,909
1,114
67
Florida
.......Corrosion was mentioned, well, the Mossberg pump is the best to handle that. It's only a $200 shotgun to begin with, the receiver is aluminum, the bolt is stainless....

Aluminum alloy will corrode also. Actually, so will stainless, but not as easily.
 

slowworm

Full Member
May 8, 2008
2,025
976
Devon
CCI (best for my semi) has been a nightmare. Can't get Federal for my 6.5 either.

I've seen plenty of CCI about down here, SK is more of a problem. That may just be down to luck though.

Reloader 15 or the other hand took so long I had to switch to a different powder.
 

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