Passaround - Chris Caine Survival Tool

[FGYT]

just an observation on this and the other Lofty inspired tools none seem to have the recommended edge geometry which Lofty talks about way back in the SAS survival hand book with 3 different areas to the blade each sharpened to do different jobs and the method Ive used for my large blades (mainly Kukri's ) ever since the 80's

However the CC tool looks to be machine sharpened so probably difficult to multi sharpen effectively and most would want to alter it to there exact pref but i guess sharpening the whole to the obtuse angle does mean you can re profile the other areas to a more acute angle as you like etc. Some of the otehr tools look like they have gone for the finer angle all over which is then difficult to fatten up where you want

here is the section from the book

ATB

Duncan

 

[JonathanD]

The knife arrived today. I thought we were reviewing the new Staniforths model, but it turns out this is the original tool as made by A Wright. It is the more expensive of the two and has a different grind completely. See here for the differences.... http://www.wildernessessentials.co.uk/Survival-Knives.html

First impressions.. For an A Wright made tool it is one of their better in terms of construction and fitting. The bolts on the handle are a little rough, but that is nothing, the slabs are tight fitting and show no signs of movement or lifting, so all good there. They are also well rounded with no apparent blister inducing edges. I'll soon find out when I use it though, as this is the one area where most parang/machetes fail big time.

The grind can be easily sorted it seems, and just needs a bit of work with a stone to blend in that secondary bevel. I don't like the edge transition from blade to choil though (as Stew pointed out in his review). To me it has wasted valuable space in an area that you would usually use for finer work. But then it looks and feels more like a tool designed for heavy work and chopping than anything else. The handle feels odd as if it has been designed for giant hands, and I can easily get both my hands on it, and I don't have small hands. All that is first impressions only though, I'll take it out for a proper test either tomorrow or Friday.

As for the sheath, it is nice leather, but is a little thin. With the edge reprofiled it would have no problem in slicing through this soft leather. A thick kydex or plastic liner is really needed, or thicker, harder leather. The swivel, as Stew points out, doesn't really give good movement and could benefit from a D ring. The poppers on the retention flap are more than adequate for the job and should hold up.

 

[JonathanD]

Well I put it through its paces along with two Borneo parangs, my new Bayley and Robbi's GB Mini axe.

It has to be said, it is unfortunate that the parangs arrived at the same time as the CC tool, as it just could not compete on any level with them. The edge is so obtuse that it couldn't chop brambles out of the way at all, it just knocked them aside. To be fair though, I don't think it is designed for jungle use, so I'll let that pass. With that in mind I chopped some big stuff.

It is with chopping that is obviously designed for, and it did much better here. But it is a brute. Again the edge, although sharp, bludgeons it's way through the wood. It required five times more effort to use than the parangs. The blade performs somewhat the same as a not too sharp axe, but without the large arch of swing you get with an axe. Almost like a Wildlife hatchet. But it does chop well even with those points considered.

After I lopped down a decent sized sapling I set to work trimming the branches. Again, it is in this finer work that the CC tool falls short in terms of performance. It skips across the wood and sometimes would skim right off a protruding branch because the angle of growth was too acute for it to be able to bite into the wood. Trying to make feathersticks with it is pointless. Too much like hard work, and it was simply awful. Again, it just skidded down the wood. I even tried on a pencil when I got back and it just scraped the paint off. It is good at splitting however, and it does this well and easily.

Now to that handle. For me it is too long and because it is a multi-hold design, it doesn't really feel comfortable with any way you hold it. I found it too square in profile and coupled with some unfinished ridges that are hard to see with the naked eye, it was blister inducing. Not majorly so, but certainly with prolonged use. Easily remedied of course with a bit of re-profiling and sanding. The side of the slabs at the front was very sharp and squared too, so when you choke up for fine chopping, it rips into your thumb and forefinger.

So after all that, you might have the opinion that I didn't like it. But you would be wrong... kinda...

As I said, it is unfortunate that the Borneo parangs arrive when they did, as they do outperform it in every possible way. But for us bushcrafters, I think it has a place and I would carry it in the UK over an axe (albeit after I've sorted that awful edge out and modified the handle). It has been labelled a survival tool, and I can see it being great in our woods for building shelters and for camp work. It is good at splitting and for clearing areas. With the edge re-profiled it could easily make feathersticks and be used for finer camp duties. It would however, be useless in a rainforest environment. Well... 'useless' may be taking it too far, but it wouldn't be good.

All in all it could be a great tool, the manufacturing part and attention to detail fall short. This should perform these simple tasks out of the box without the user having to work some more on it. Compared to kukris, billhooks and axes, it falls way short as is.

Now of it goes to Red. Who is getting the parangs at the same time too. Sorry.

 

[Stew]

Well, sorry Ladies & Gents, but it would seem that this passaround has been cancelled.

I have just had this pm sent to me over on BB.

please sort out my survival tool to be posted back to matt as soon as possible tks

I would like confirmation from Matt before hand though as it's him I've been dealing with.

No reason given for it. Sorry!

 

[Shambling Shaman]

I needed to pull out as I'm now in the middle of moving house but thanks for trying would have been nice just to get a hold of it.

Thanks again for the work you already put in

 

[Andy BB]

It's a shame its being pulled by the supplier. I'm guessing that he's worried by the pretty damning criticism of it so far - maybe he wants to check we didn't get a dud one...

I'm no knife specialist - in fact as far from it as its possible to get! But I must admit to being very surprised to see how poorly it appears to have performed so far - from the videos and reports I've read beforehand I wasn't expecting this. Can anyone sum up the intrinsic problem with it - is it primarily the edge profile? Handles tend to be very personal to individuals (although I've never found a kukri handle I could get on with - shame as the rest of the blade on kukris are great!).

The parangs tested certainly appeared impressive. However one thing (ok, 2 - but the sheath can be replaced with a purpose-built one) puts me off those - the partial tang and it's fixture into the handle. Without a through fixing, you seem to be reliant on whatever glue was used to hold the blade into the handle, and the strength of the handle itself. Considering the forces at work when chopping, the thought of a heavy, very sharp blade flying loose as it parts company with the handle seems like a risk too far. I've seem a couple of instances in Africa of very nasty injuries caused by locally made machetes/parangs falling apart, and heard plenty of stories of other near-misses. The oft-heard argument that "The locals have used them for years, so they must be suitable" doesn't necessarily hold water - they use them because it's all that is available llocally and within their price range. Sure, local development will tend to lead to the most suitable shape and weight - and edge profile - that can be achieved with local materials. But that in itself could be limiting. For example, a particular blade/weight/shape might be ideal but impractical because there is no way locally of ensuring it stays in the handle under the stresses encountered. Or the ideal metal is not available locally, so a completely different shape etc suitable for whatever metal is available is developed.

 

[FGYT]

its a shame if it is because of the edge profile

IMO this is something that i would expect to re do to my preference and a factory edge inst going to be as good if it was it would be more money and still wouldn't suit every body the current edge looks fine as it will allow people do what they want ...if it was to thin its more difficult to make it fatter again with out removing a lot of material and changing the profile etc

i changed the performance of my Kukri massively once i had sharpened it to my use

ATB

Duncan

 

[British Red]

Its with me at the moment. If you let me know where you want it sent stew, I'll post it

Red

 

[Tony]

Well, sorry Ladies & Gents, but it would seem that this passaround has been cancelled.

I have just had this pm sent to me over on BB.



I would like confirmation from Matt before hand though as it's him I've been dealing with.

No reason given for it. Sorry!

That's a shame, what usually happens with passarounds like this is after it's been around everyone there's people that like it, people that don't and all the points are made and everyone benefits, designers and manufacturers can tweak or contribute to the discussion so that people understand the decisions made on knives and why they are like they are and people interested in knives can see different perspectives and broaden knowledge.

 

[Matt1]

Sorry for the earlier confusion the pass around is NOT been cancelled, having spoken to Chris earlier, Chris explained the reason why he wanted it pulled.

The reason being “nobody seems to be willing to use the sharpening pin to hone the edge on the tool“, as all experienced knife users will understand the tool comes with a factory wetted edge, and the end user would hone the edge with the sharpening pin to there personal preferences before taking the tool out into the field for use.

After talking to Chris today it's been agreed that the pass around will continue.

British Red please continue with the pass around.

 

[JonathanD]

Sorry for the earlier confusion the pass around is NOT been cancelled, having spoken to Chris earlier, Chris explained the reason why he wanted it pulled.

The reason being “nobody seems to be willing to use the sharpening pin to hone the edge on the tool“, as all experienced knife users will understand the tool comes with a factory wetted edge, and the end user would hone the edge with the sharpening pin to there personal preferences before taking the tool out into the field for use.

After talking to Chris today it's been agreed that the pass around will continue.

British Red please continue with the pass around.

I did use it. The edge was hair popping sharp when it came to me and the same when it left. To put an edge on it so that it shaved wood finely would need more than that steel though.

That's just me and Stew though, the other people on the list may like it as is.

 

[British Red]

It was very sharp as received - I would expect nothing less from Jon

 

[FGYT]

The reason being “nobody seems to be willing to use the sharpening pin to hone the edge on the tool“, as all experienced knife users will understand the tool comes with a factory wetted edge, and the end user would hone the edge with the sharpening pin to there personal preferences before taking the tool out into the field for use.

this is the bit that i think is the problem i wouldnt expect any knife i bought to be sharpened how i want it that dosnt mean it inst sharp ( British Red on reciving his PKF several Hundreds of £££££ first sharpened it to his pref )

the wanting to keep the factory geomatry for each user is the problem here not the tool regardless of sharpness ( a 90deg edge can be sharp )


ATB

Duncan

 

[Shambling Shaman]

I needed to pull out as I'm now in the middle of moving house

I dont want to be between address and lose it!! So if you could drop me from the list thanks,
Will watch the rest of the pass round with interest...

 

[British Red]

Been out felling small weed trees today with the tools. Interesting!

Photos and write up will follow after some more tasks

 

[British Red]

Review – the Chris Caine survival knife
I have had the Chris Caine knife for nearly a week now as part of the BCUK pass around. I have reviewed it as a “stand alone” tool, and also followed up with comparisons to one of Woody’s parangs and also to the original “Wiseman” tool.
The knife comes in a solid leather sheath. Its secured with a “flap over” retention system secured with three press stud poppers. There is a dangler belt loop which I prefer to a fixed loop as it allows the sheathed knife to pivot out of the way when sitting.

1.1. Knife in sheath by British Red, on Flickr
This is the knife removed from the sheath next to my PFK belt knife for scale. Don’t worry about the “smears” on the blade. I took this photo after giving the knife a Renaissance wax coating (I re-coated the blade several times in the week as its been raining a lot and I wanted to avoid rust).

1.2 Dimensions by British Red, on Flickr
The knife dimensions are
Weight: 810g
Weight in sheath: 1049g
OAL: 44cm
Blade length: 27cm
Cutting Edge: 22.5cm (fairly long ricasso so you can choke up on the blade)

1.3 weight by British Red, on Flickr

As well as giving the blade a coating of Ren’ wax to protect it, I gave it a really good sharpen – with the supplied sharpening steel and a quick stone and strop. I tried to keep the angles suggested on the CC site. I always give a knife a sharpen first and this one had its work cut out for it.

One thing that became apparent even just handling the knife was the flexibility of grips that very long handle offers
You can use a standard “mid handle” grip

1.4 Grip by British Red, on Flickr
You can choke up a long way for fine work

1.5 Choked Grip by British Red, on Flickr
Or you can extend the grip right out to a two fingered grip for chopping

1.6 2 finger by British Red, on Flickr

Time to give the knife a good workout. I have been thinning out some blackthorn, elder and bullace. This amount of snedding should test it!

2.1 Workout by British Red, on Flickr

So, can it cut? Yup. This is a single cut

2.2 Single cut by British Red, on Flickr
I thought a “scale” would help – this is an elder cut with one chop – the pound coins add scale

2.3 cut Scale by British Red, on Flickr
The tool stood up to this challenge okay, so another sharpen and I decided to try felling a small (arm thick) ash tree.

3.1 Tree Cut by British Red, on Flickr
Well, clearly I wasn’t going to drop this with a single blow!
Half a dozen chops got me this far though

3.2 V Notch by British Red, on Flickr
Five more saw the tree drop.
A little bit of splitting and I decided to try a feather stick

4 Feather by British Red, on Flickr
Okay, I’m never going to get four curls on a match head as I can with the PFK, but it’ll start a fire!
Given I had spent two full days working the tool hard, I decided to investigate the comparisons others had made with a parang
I selected one just 2 grams lighter than the survival tool

5.6 Weight by British Red, on Flickr
I made a test cut in a thicker ash bough that was at the limit of what I could cut with a single swipe of the parang

5.8 Parang Chop by British Red, on Flickr
The CC tool could not penetrate as deeply

5.7 CC chop by British Red, on Flickr
Lets see why ....
Same thickness as well as the same weight

5.2 Top View by British Red, on Flickr

However the stick tang means that the parang is considerably longer for the same weight

5.1 Parang by British Red, on Flickr

....an examination on the balance point of both tools also shows the Parang has more forward weight

5.4 Balance by British Red, on Flickr

I also think that the “full spine and bevel” design of the Chris Caine tool means the cutting edge has a more obtuse bevel than the parang which means the parang can penetrate more deeply for a given amount of torque (and it develops more torque since it is longer and more forward weighted).

So do I think the parang is a better tool? No. I think the parang is a tool optimised for slashing and chopping. Centuries of “on the job” refinement of the design mean that it’s hard to beat. The Chris Caine tool is trying to be a survival tool – full tang, strong, able to fulfil a multitude of tasks. Its certainly strong, it comes in a tough sheath (which the parang does not), its capable of some impressive cuts – more than adequate for shelter building etc. , and can be securely held in different ways. One thing I am sure of – its certainly an improvement on John Wiseman’s original!

Wiseman by British Red, on Flickr

Red

 

[redandshane]

Thats a good review and I for one was very impressed by the chopping abilty of the CC tool and will investigate further

Personally these type of tools are just too big and heavy for my use/carry but that doesn't put off my enjoyment in this great review Or my admiration of these tools and the makers
Thanks

 

[British Red]

All packed up and en route RMSD to FGYT

 

[Shambling Shaman]

Good review thanks.

 

[Stew]

Good write up. Can I ask how long you spent having to sharpen it to a level you were happy with?