Middle of nowhere...

[mark a.]

I'm reading through the Kephart book (Camping and Woodcraft), and one thing that really struck me is that he and his ilk would happily head off into the wilds of nowhere, with not a soul or dwelling for hundreds of miles around, and not get (a) freaked out and (b) completely lost.

Now, my navigation skills are pretty pathetic (my wife is miles better than me) so for me a detailed OS map (and compass of course) is essential. I get a bit concerned if we're not exactly sure where we are (and probably only a mile out at the very most). And I live in Surrey, where it's probably fairly impossible to actually get properly lost. These guys will just make their own sketch maps, and use rickety old compasses, and somehow survive!

How do people cope? Presumably people like Abbe, plus our US and Canadian friends, do this all the time - is this normal business, or are you constantly on your guard to make sure you don't get lost? Are us British people doomed to evolve into complete reliance on sat-nav?

 

[PhilParry]

In my view the trick is to practice identifying and memorising natural land marks. Whenever I go for a walk I try to rely on that skill first. Then I'll look at a map if I need to. Then if I'm totally lost (or the weather makes it impossible e.g. 2 metre visibility and 60 mph winds on Great Gable (yes, I probably shouldn't have been there! )) I'll use my trusty GPS. The trick is not to just use that straight away!

Phil

 

[bambodoggy]

Out by us Mark I don't use a map or compass....ok I've lived here a long time and know the area but I do still find places I haven't been to before and sometimes I think "maybe this is what people call getting lost", to me I'm not lost...I'm here . I use various indicators to tell me which way to head and I usually pop out more or less where I expected to be.

My Nav skills are (and I don't mean this in a big headed way as they were drummed into me in the past) pretty spot on....but to me a map and compass detracts from a nice wonder in the woods, half the point is getting "lost" and not caring. It's different if I'm heading away from here and into the mountains but locally the worst that'll happen is I'll get home to a cold diner (isn't that what microwave ovens were invented for?lol) and a cross wife (which is what sheds were invented for lol)! lol

Next time we go out and you think I'm confidently striding off knowing where I'm going don't forget....I most likely haven't a clue and don't care

Bam.

 

[jdlenton]

I think its all about practice and confidence like bam says in your local area you can build up a really good understanding of your surroundings get to know your skyline and pretty much know where you are all the time even when your in a small corner you have never been to. Lets face it, its only going to be a couple of miles max that you will wander "lost" before you come across a man made directional aid be it a road, fence, path, track, village, wall, etc. that will turn you back in the right direction. As for the use of a map i always have one in my bag where ever i am as it can give me clues about the history and archaeology of the area i am in and i can record locations of things i find that are of interest, and help me out if a get stuck, injured, the weather closes in,it gets dark or i have to navigate by dead reckoning.
As for sat nav i can see it as being a very useful tool for navigation and the recording of places of interest that one would like to revisit. I personally don't own one and don't think i will until some one gives me one as i regularly practice my navigation skills.

Before chirs c jumps in and says but you get turned around in our local woods its true i have a tendency in one particular place we visit to get totally spun round i had a good think while i was there this weekend and i decided that there were a couple of factors one i can't see the sky line and too i always chat too much when I'm with the gang that i don't take any notice of where the group is heading so when it comes to deciding which way to go i have no mental map of where we have traveled to and that my usually good sense of direction has no reference
which leads nicely into an answer to you question

I think that folks who don't get to know their patch and practice natural navigation, those that don't use map and compass skills so they can do accurate dead reckoning will eventually rely on others or a technology to guide them. I guess I'm saying get out there get comfortable build your confidence and turn the sat nav off put it in your pocket and only get it out if you want to check you accuracy or you really need it.


James

 

[gregorach]

The other thing about those old-timers was that they weren't neccesarily going anywhere in particular, and they didn't have to worry too much about boundaries. I mean, if there's no civilisation for hundreds of miles, how lost can you really be? Provided you have some sense of direction and a vague idea of how far you've gone, coupled with the skills and knowledge to live off the land more-or-less indefinitely, then the idea of being "lost" must get fairly irrelevant.

 

[BorderReiver]

The answer seems to be that they don't care if they get "lost".

As long as you are happy that you can live off the terrain,there is no reason to worry about knowing exactly where you are.

The people you mention are relaxed in their environment,which is what we as bushcrafters are striving after.

I'll never get to that stage but it's fun trying.

 

[mark a.]

Certainly my navigational skills could do with a slight improvement But I do seem to have such a rubbish sense of direction and memory for where things are. Presumably practice will help. I know Kephart states that no-one has an innate sense of direction, it's just that some have got the knack and some don't, so there's hope for me yet if I can figure out that knack. It's slightly annoying when my wife does it all with ease while I'm struggling to set the map, but she's (sometimes) patient with me!

I suppose my bigger point was the fact that generally in the UK it's nigh on impossible to get properly lost, so I was wondering whether navigation ability is slowly fading away from our collective skills. Is this actually the case? Or have the skills morphed to account for modern times? Maybe you no longer need to pick your way though the woods, but people do need to be able to drive out of a one-way system in an unfamiliar city.

The third point is that for most of us it's weird to be in a huge, uninhabited area. I've kind of done it a few times e.g. in crown land in Canada, or even in the middle of massive arable fields of North Dakota, but in all cases I've been with someone who knows where they are. It's certainly a strange feeling, and not altogether unpleasant. It just makes me feel more awe at people like Kephart.

It's a very good point that much of the time they didn't actually care where they were, so couldn't really call themselves lost. I suppose it's different now when you know you must get back to civilisation in time for the football...

 

[mark a.]

Oh, and Bam, I'll remember to surreptitiously pack a compass when we're next out, just in case!

 

[gregorach]

I know Kephart states that no-one has an innate sense of direction, it's just that some have got the knack and some don't, so there's hope for me yet if I can figure out that knack.

I'm not sure that's actually true. I remember hearing about some research done on this that indicated that many (but not all) people do have an innate sense of direction, which can be confounded by magnetic fields. The research involved taking blindfolded people on a complex route and then asking them to point to the direction of their starting point. All wore hats, but some of the hats contained magnets. The group without magnets had a fairly high rate of accuracy, whereas the group with magnets were completely random.

 

[bogflogger]

I think being "lost" is a state of mind!

How lost do you want/need to be?

On my own, I am happy in the wilds of Knoydart just knowing which Glen I am in!

If I was with a group, I would know to 10ft.

Probably the best way to improve your navigation, would be to bin the Satnav.

Also, turning around frequently and doing a mental "snapshot" of where you have BEEN helps you to retrace your steps.

 

[mark a.]

Now that's cool to know, gregorach. Unfortuantely I don't seem to have any magnets on me... Anyway, it was one of those statements in the book that makes you think (I must admit I wasn't totally convinced) - obviously the book was written rather a long time ago so some ways of thinking are no longer correct.

But I do reckon that most people will be able to navigate if they really concentrate or really practice. I remember at one point walking on my own through some Malaysian rainforest on my own, and I certainly paid attention to the track as I certainly didn't want to get lost!

 

[bambodoggy]

Also, turning around frequently and doing a mental "snapshot" of where you have BEEN helps you to retrace your steps.

This is very sound advice as things often look very different when looked at from the opposite angle, then add that to the mild panic of being "lost" and it's easy to lose your way. I can't remember off hand where I picked up this little gem from but I do use it often if I'm not in familiar teritory and it certainly helps.

 

[mark a.]

Good point.

Btw, I don't own a satnav. I was just wondering whether as a nation we'll all end up relying on them too much, at the expense of our own innate abilities.

 

[gregorach]

Just digging around for more info on that research, and I came up with something that could well be interesting to many people here: Psychology Of Lost (pdf warning). Haven't had time to read all of it yet, but it looks interesting.

It also contradicts me:

Although the belief in such a sixth sense still persists in some quarters, no controlled study to date has found reliable evidence of a human ability to directly sense the direction of magnetic north — or any other direction, for that matter.

And there is a very interesting remark that's relevant to the current discussion:

It is being suggested, therefore, that most people most of the time are much less oriented than they realize. Fortunately, this fact rarely becomes apparent to us, unless we make a wrong turn and have to regain our bearings. Even then, in most environments, there are usually sufficient wayfinding cues — or people to provide directions — to get us back on our way. Being oriented, then, lies as much in our confidence of getting “unturned around,” should the need arise, as in being able to determine the correct route.

I guess that's really the crux here.

 

[Woods Wanderer]

in england its easy look for the light polution! go out at weekends with a knife flint and steel and caterpult,air pistol or blanket do that for a while and start leaving things at home and build your confidence i find it makes a huge difference leaving my phone at home its all in the mind if you have much kit you end up living of your kit not the land,my 2 p over my skills arnt great but i have confidence read lots of mountain men and war storeys to change your mind set man i sound big headed

 

[bambodoggy]

in england its easy look for the light polution! go out at weekends with a knife flint and steel and caterpult,air pistol or blanket do that for a while and start leaving things at home and build your confidence i find it makes a huge difference leaving my phone at home its all in the mind if you have much kit you end up living of your kit not the land,my 2 p over my skills arnt great but i have confidence read lots of mountain men and war storeys to change your mind set man i sound big headed

Much as I agree with your ethos Matey, taking an air pistol/catapult with you will no doubt end in an armed responce unit "guiding" you out of the woods! lol

 

[dommyracer]

I don't mind wandering and being 'lost', the problem is I generally have to have get back to where I came from by a certain time so need to know where I am.

 

[Abbe Osram]

I'm reading through the Kephart book (Camping and Woodcraft), and one thing that really struck me is that he and his ilk would happily head off into the wilds of nowhere, with not a soul or dwelling for hundreds of miles around, and not get (a) freaked out and (b) completely lost.

Now, my navigation skills are pretty pathetic (my wife is miles better than me) so for me a detailed OS map (and compass of course) is essential. I get a bit concerned if we're not exactly sure where we are (and probably only a mile out at the very most). And I live in Surrey, where it's probably fairly impossible to actually get properly lost. These guys will just make their own sketch maps, and use rickety old compasses, and somehow survive!

How do people cope? Presumably people like Abbe, plus our US and Canadian friends, do this all the time - is this normal business, or are you constantly on your guard to make sure you don't get lost? Are us British people doomed to evolve into complete reliance on sat-nav?

Most of us stick in their areas and get to know it better and better, still I have a map and a compas and now I even have an gps. The gps was fun, after hunting for a whole day walking around and around I got back to the car dead on.
While hunting you dont want to have anything to do with a compass, so I enjoyed the gps a great deal. Now lets say the gps spooks and I am lost. I look at the moutains in my area an know where I am. I know that if I walk to the south - east line all is well and I will eventually hit a road. But I really dont want to walk west as I know I will up in norway with nothing stopping me. So its a thing to get used to.
If you look at your map and memorise the important cut ins. Like powerlines or streets than you are much more calm, as you know you will always get out.

 

[nobby]

I'm reading through the Kephart book (Camping and Woodcraft), and one thing that really struck me is that he and his ilk would happily head off into the wilds of nowhere, with not a soul or dwelling for hundreds of miles around, and not get (a) freaked out and (b) completely lost.

I've just read The Voyage of the Sairy Gamp and there is a story in there of an Adirondack guide who got lost with his client. He kept telling the client that it would be just 20 minutes until they got back to camp and eventually they did. Next day the guide went back out to find out where he had gone wrong and got lost again.
Kephart and ilk didn't often publish their mistakes but it doesn't mean they didn't make them. As for freaking out; who's going to know :0)

 

[mark a.]

As for freaking out; who's going to know :0)

LOL!

I was out in the woods last night, and paid attention to easy-to-spot landmarks. That kind of helped unless I had no idea where that landmark was in relation to anywhere else... D'oh!

Practice, practice, practice.