Living Off Grid- sort of
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Good,
Right so we have a 12V panel it generates voltage and pushes some current into the battery. So in effect we have (using the plumbing example) something creating water pressure and "pushing" current into the tank (battery). That happens with light shining on the panel.
However, when its dark, there is lots of water in the tank (battery) and no pressure (volts) so the water (current) will go the other way and empty the tank (flatten the battery) - not so good. A panel connected directly to a battery will charge the battery by day and flatten it by night!
In plumbing you would use a valve to ensure that water only flows one way. In electrical circuits you use a diode. Its a tiny doohicky that only allows the panel to charge the battery in light and prevents it from draining it in the dark
Make sense?
Next problem. You have water pressure (voltage from the panel) filling your tank (battery). The tank gets fuller and fuller and eventually (if not used) will overflow. Same in solar - if you keep charging a fully charged battery you will damage it!
In a tank you would use a ball cock to shut off the water when it was full. In a solar system you use a charge controller - this stops the battery being over charged. In really clever systems when the battery is fully charged it diverts the power elsewhere to do something like heat your water tank.
So we now have four bits of kit
A panel
A diode (to stop the panel draining the battery in the dark)
A charge controller ( to stop the battery overcharging)
The battery
Still with me?
Red
Right so we have a 12V panel it generates voltage and pushes some current into the battery. So in effect we have (using the plumbing example) something creating water pressure and "pushing" current into the tank (battery). That happens with light shining on the panel.
However, when its dark, there is lots of water in the tank (battery) and no pressure (volts) so the water (current) will go the other way and empty the tank (flatten the battery) - not so good. A panel connected directly to a battery will charge the battery by day and flatten it by night!
In plumbing you would use a valve to ensure that water only flows one way. In electrical circuits you use a diode. Its a tiny doohicky that only allows the panel to charge the battery in light and prevents it from draining it in the dark
Make sense?
Next problem. You have water pressure (voltage from the panel) filling your tank (battery). The tank gets fuller and fuller and eventually (if not used) will overflow. Same in solar - if you keep charging a fully charged battery you will damage it!
In a tank you would use a ball cock to shut off the water when it was full. In a solar system you use a charge controller - this stops the battery being over charged. In really clever systems when the battery is fully charged it diverts the power elsewhere to do something like heat your water tank.
So we now have four bits of kit
A panel
A diode (to stop the panel draining the battery in the dark)
A charge controller ( to stop the battery overcharging)
The battery
Still with me?
Red
Nope - no jokes 
Can't do any more right now - flap on at work - bump the thread in the next day or two and I'll get on to:
Red
Can't do any more right now - flap on at work - bump the thread in the next day or two and I'll get on to:
- Getting the power out
- Sizing the System
- Power loss & wiring
- etc.
Red
Thanks Red. I'm in absolutely no rush, probably be well into summertime before I have any spare cash to get started so whenever you get round to the rest is fine by me.
You're the one doing me a favour.
You're the one doing me a favour.
I forgot - we never finished the explanation did we?
Right so we've got a charged 12V battery.
At it crudest level - that's it. Take your 12V device, strip the wires with your teeth, stick em on the terminal and there we are.
Bit crude though huh?
As a minimum I suggest useing a "female" 12V socket connected to both terminals. This is the "cigar lighter" socket from your car. Attach one of those to your battery and anything with a 12V car lead can be connected to your battery.
However some stuff is designed to work to 240V - your computer might be, or TV (although 12V versions are available). If you want 240V, you connect an "inverter". This dohicky turns 12V direct current (DC) into 240 V AC (Alternating current). How doesn't really matter for our purposes - suffice it to say it lets you plug a 3 pin plug into the box and it works like the mains.
Now there are different types of inverter - some devices require a very "pure" sine wave (the smoothness of alternation). These cost a lot more. Many basic devices need only a rough type and a cheap inverter will suffice. Its worth looking into for a big system.
One more thing I use is a power manager device. It plugs into a 12V socket and is designed to run things like laptops, PDAs, phones etc. It also offers a USB socket to charge cameras and the like. Plug this into the 12V socket and pretty much any portable computer gear can be run from its integral power leads and sockets.
So we now have
A panel
A diode (to stop the panel draining the battery in the dark)
A charge controller ( to stop the battery overcharging)
The battery
A 12v female socket
An inverter
A 12Vpower manager
A bunch of wires and plugs to stick it all togther
Still with me?
Red
Right so we've got a charged 12V battery.
At it crudest level - that's it. Take your 12V device, strip the wires with your teeth, stick em on the terminal and there we are.
Bit crude though huh?
As a minimum I suggest useing a "female" 12V socket connected to both terminals. This is the "cigar lighter" socket from your car. Attach one of those to your battery and anything with a 12V car lead can be connected to your battery.
However some stuff is designed to work to 240V - your computer might be, or TV (although 12V versions are available). If you want 240V, you connect an "inverter". This dohicky turns 12V direct current (DC) into 240 V AC (Alternating current). How doesn't really matter for our purposes - suffice it to say it lets you plug a 3 pin plug into the box and it works like the mains.
Now there are different types of inverter - some devices require a very "pure" sine wave (the smoothness of alternation). These cost a lot more. Many basic devices need only a rough type and a cheap inverter will suffice. Its worth looking into for a big system.
One more thing I use is a power manager device. It plugs into a 12V socket and is designed to run things like laptops, PDAs, phones etc. It also offers a USB socket to charge cameras and the like. Plug this into the 12V socket and pretty much any portable computer gear can be run from its integral power leads and sockets.
So we now have
A panel
A diode (to stop the panel draining the battery in the dark)
A charge controller ( to stop the battery overcharging)
The battery
A 12v female socket
An inverter
A 12Vpower manager
A bunch of wires and plugs to stick it all togther
Still with me?
Red
A bloke I know has a solar electric panel and small wind generators charging a bank of car batteries connected in parallel (so still only 12 volts output) and them has wires running into his house to an inverter, its not an ideal setup but its very cheap to do and your not going to ket killed by touching a 12 volt DC wire.
Thats just till he gets his waterwheel up and running.
A house I used to live in had solar hot water that pre heated the incoming water before it went into the boiler so lessening the amount of gas used to heat the water up.
Theres systems out there where woodburning stoves, solar hotwater, mains pressure combi boilers and ground source heat pumps can all be combined if you want.
This tite HERE is worth a good look around but for some reason I can't link you directly to the page that shows it best, you will just have to look for it.
I assume all thats pretty expensive but if you put the investment in you should get it back out.
Thats just till he gets his waterwheel up and running.
A house I used to live in had solar hot water that pre heated the incoming water before it went into the boiler so lessening the amount of gas used to heat the water up.
Theres systems out there where woodburning stoves, solar hotwater, mains pressure combi boilers and ground source heat pumps can all be combined if you want.
This tite HERE is worth a good look around but for some reason I can't link you directly to the page that shows it best, you will just have to look for it.
I assume all thats pretty expensive but if you put the investment in you should get it back out.
This could turn into a long discussion, much like the preparedness thread. For some easy to set up and operate off grid electrical ideas, visit a site called "www.instructables.com." In it you'll find several ways of gathering and storing power, water systems, food storage, and a lot of strange ideas. You may have to look a bit but I have found an electrical system that runs a cabin with 4 car batteries for power. The writer built a box in the back to hold 4 other batteries that he charges on his daily drive to work. There's more to it, but it is incredibly simple. Another guy uses a car battery solar recharger in place of his broken alternator and runs several his truck's electrics that way. Whole bunch of other stuff. Buy the way, on this site I have learned you can make anything out of duct tape---I mean anything. From underwear to jewelry. Why.....I don't know. Take a look and have fun.
Stevec038
Stevec038
I've posted this link in another thread, but in case you are't following that one,
there was a programme last October about someone doing exactly what you
are talking about, and quite a lot was made from rubbish. I've put up a Flash
copy of the programme. Right now, there is only a low-quality version, but
others are uploading, so within a few hours there will be some better quality
ones if you have a good enough connection.
http://roughian.com/GarbageWarrior/
there was a programme last October about someone doing exactly what you
are talking about, and quite a lot was made from rubbish. I've put up a Flash
copy of the programme. Right now, there is only a low-quality version, but
others are uploading, so within a few hours there will be some better quality
ones if you have a good enough connection.
http://roughian.com/GarbageWarrior/
Don't forget to get yourself an allotment - extra food production space for pretty much no cost.
If there are none availalbe you can get a list of interested parties and present it to the council - there is a by-law still in place that states that a local authority is obligated to provide allotment space if a certain number of people express an interest - time consuning it will be but certainly worth it.
We're doing this at the moment.
I've also wondered about the possibility to installing a small hydro-electric turbine in your waste pipes - not toilet but vcertainly bath and sink drainage pipes - the amount of water that flows through them daily must be able to be channelled into a holding tank and provide a steady stream heavy enough to provide enough charge to charge up a 12V battery.
If you are on a water meter you could also look at converting your washing machine / toilet flush water to using collected rainwater stored in a loft tank - apparently saves a huge amount of water and down hehre where water rates are approx. £70 per month (!) it is worth it.
If there are none availalbe you can get a list of interested parties and present it to the council - there is a by-law still in place that states that a local authority is obligated to provide allotment space if a certain number of people express an interest - time consuning it will be but certainly worth it.
We're doing this at the moment.
I've also wondered about the possibility to installing a small hydro-electric turbine in your waste pipes - not toilet but vcertainly bath and sink drainage pipes - the amount of water that flows through them daily must be able to be channelled into a holding tank and provide a steady stream heavy enough to provide enough charge to charge up a 12V battery.
If you are on a water meter you could also look at converting your washing machine / toilet flush water to using collected rainwater stored in a loft tank - apparently saves a huge amount of water and down hehre where water rates are approx. £70 per month (!) it is worth it.
To add some things that we have done.
Our freezer is on a timer. I separated the compressor and condenser from the backside, carefully bending the copper tubing so that it is 1' from the freezer. We throw a duvet over the freezer. Huge difference.
We haven't had a fridge for seven years. Between the freezer, pantry and root cellar we don't need one. Our pantry floor is not insulated. From September until May the bottom shelf in the pantry keeps things cool. The root cellar always keeps things cool.
An old sixty gallon water tank thermocycling through our wood cook stove is like having a second wood heater and supplies us with hot water. I've also done this fit to our shop wood heater.
A small green house off the south wall of our small house heats up for vented heat and supplies greens earlier and later in the season for us.
I grew up on a middle class street in the city. After reinsulating the roof and upgrading the windows, my father converted our backyard into a garden, plumbed in an 80 gallon preheating tank beside the furnace receiving city water before the hot water tank, built in a wood stove in the basement and plumbed it into the central heat then cut and dug a small root cellar off the basement. That was 40 years ago. I'm sure if he was still alive he'd have a solar array on the roof and a heat pump in the cellar.
For our power we've 375 watts of panel, a 25 amp controller, 8 - 6 volt heavy batteries and a 2500 watt inverter. $5000 Canadian.
This system over 13 years has paid for itself twice. That is not considering the real cost of fossil fuels. The newest stat I've read is that the real cost of a solar panel operating in ideal circumstances is paid for in 5 years of operation.
I went a little watt heavy as far as panel:battery ratio. During the dark months of January and December when the batteries get low repeatedly it is easier for the batteries to accept a charge. Sometimes I'll disconnect 2 of the batteries for a greater advantage in breaking through the batteries' resistance to accept a charge. I found that reading a bit about batteries and 12 v (DC) was a good thing.
From March until September power is not an issue here. We run our cabin and a small shop without any sacrifice. Working with the sun is the key.
When the sun is full we pump water from the well, fill a tank, charge our flashlight, computer and storage batteries, vacuum. We really live by the sun.
For a couple of years it was an adjustment living off grid... Shaking off our sense of entitlement. By the second year we knew we were onto something. Now we are just plain sad that more people aren't living this way. Working with nature.
Now we grow all our own organic vegetable and free range eggs. Half our meat we hunt the other half we trade for. We are leaning toward raising a few more animals.
We initially came up here for ethical reasons. Saving money, living comfortably with much less has turned out to be much more.
Hope this helps.
http://www.caribooblades.com
http://aki-and-scott-fireweed.blogspot.com/
Our freezer is on a timer. I separated the compressor and condenser from the backside, carefully bending the copper tubing so that it is 1' from the freezer. We throw a duvet over the freezer. Huge difference.
We haven't had a fridge for seven years. Between the freezer, pantry and root cellar we don't need one. Our pantry floor is not insulated. From September until May the bottom shelf in the pantry keeps things cool. The root cellar always keeps things cool.
An old sixty gallon water tank thermocycling through our wood cook stove is like having a second wood heater and supplies us with hot water. I've also done this fit to our shop wood heater.
A small green house off the south wall of our small house heats up for vented heat and supplies greens earlier and later in the season for us.
I grew up on a middle class street in the city. After reinsulating the roof and upgrading the windows, my father converted our backyard into a garden, plumbed in an 80 gallon preheating tank beside the furnace receiving city water before the hot water tank, built in a wood stove in the basement and plumbed it into the central heat then cut and dug a small root cellar off the basement. That was 40 years ago. I'm sure if he was still alive he'd have a solar array on the roof and a heat pump in the cellar.
For our power we've 375 watts of panel, a 25 amp controller, 8 - 6 volt heavy batteries and a 2500 watt inverter. $5000 Canadian.
This system over 13 years has paid for itself twice. That is not considering the real cost of fossil fuels. The newest stat I've read is that the real cost of a solar panel operating in ideal circumstances is paid for in 5 years of operation.
I went a little watt heavy as far as panel:battery ratio. During the dark months of January and December when the batteries get low repeatedly it is easier for the batteries to accept a charge. Sometimes I'll disconnect 2 of the batteries for a greater advantage in breaking through the batteries' resistance to accept a charge. I found that reading a bit about batteries and 12 v (DC) was a good thing.
From March until September power is not an issue here. We run our cabin and a small shop without any sacrifice. Working with the sun is the key.
When the sun is full we pump water from the well, fill a tank, charge our flashlight, computer and storage batteries, vacuum. We really live by the sun.
For a couple of years it was an adjustment living off grid... Shaking off our sense of entitlement. By the second year we knew we were onto something. Now we are just plain sad that more people aren't living this way. Working with nature.
Now we grow all our own organic vegetable and free range eggs. Half our meat we hunt the other half we trade for. We are leaning toward raising a few more animals.
We initially came up here for ethical reasons. Saving money, living comfortably with much less has turned out to be much more.
Hope this helps.
http://www.caribooblades.com
http://aki-and-scott-fireweed.blogspot.com/
" Shaking off our sense of entitlement"
That is the best phrase I have heard in a long long time cariboo. It says so much about the way my family are learning to live.
You are a "wordsmith" sir - I salute you
Red
That is the best phrase I have heard in a long long time cariboo. It says so much about the way my family are learning to live.
You are a "wordsmith" sir - I salute you
Red
Can I also suggest www.homepower.com its American and now charges for it's monthly mag (by pdf). However there's still a huge amount of off grid stuff there that is free.
They LOVE PV, Because of it's low maintenance, though they MEAN off grid. On grid you may have better options and even off grid there may be cheaper options.
Caviet, I own shares in a company that makes wafers for PV.
I'm getting a lot from this thread.
Red, I'm still with you but with one question. Could a car battery be used with the system you are describing?
Red, I'm still with you but with one question. Could a car battery be used with the system you are describing?
In theory yes,
however they are designed to different things (supply a large fast surge of current to start the engine) whereas a deep cycle "leisure" (caravan) or marine (cabin cruiser) battery is designed to be charged and discharged and supply long term steady demand.
Get a deep cycle if you can
Red
however they are designed to different things (supply a large fast surge of current to start the engine) whereas a deep cycle "leisure" (caravan) or marine (cabin cruiser) battery is designed to be charged and discharged and supply long term steady demand.
Get a deep cycle if you can
Red
Just to add to this thread that living in a more sustainable manner, making sure your home is well insulated and not buying every energy hungry thing going will make far more difference to the planet than walking about in the woods with a bushcraft knife ever will.
In the olden days people had a larder, which is pretty much a north facing room with stone slab floors,and stone slabs to put the stuff on and nice and cool. Things like cheese are better kept in there than a fridge anyway as a fridge is really a bit too cold for it.
We are currently using energy too keep things cool where we shouldn't really need to use energy anyway.
Don't get me started on gas patio heaters either
In the olden days people had a larder, which is pretty much a north facing room with stone slab floors,and stone slabs to put the stuff on and nice and cool. Things like cheese are better kept in there than a fridge anyway as a fridge is really a bit too cold for it.
We are currently using energy too keep things cool where we shouldn't really need to use energy anyway.
Don't get me started on gas patio heaters either
This one is pretty much off grid although not home built
http://www.antarcticstation.org/index.php?s=27&rs=home&uid=360
http://www.antarcticstation.org/index.php?s=27&rs=home&uid=360
J
jinx
Guest
Anyone know if these magnetic generators that are supposed to produce free energy actually work, or if they are likely to be rolled out to private houses in the near future?
see this link
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/03/07/aussie-free-energy-generator-presented-by-sky-news/
The proposition is that every house has one and produces more energy than the generator needs to run, so we won't need the energy companies any more. I suspect if they work the energy companies will buy the rights and squash it!
Jinx
see this link
http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2008/03/07/aussie-free-energy-generator-presented-by-sky-news/
The proposition is that every house has one and produces more energy than the generator needs to run, so we won't need the energy companies any more. I suspect if they work the energy companies will buy the rights and squash it!
Jinx
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