How ?? Soldiers die on beacons

[Mouse040]

UK news
Sunday 14 July 2013 15.35 BST

Two soldiers die on training exercise in Brecon Beacons

Ministry of Defence and police investigate deaths of two military personnel on hottest day of year

A view of the Brecon Beacons, used by the army to put regular and special forces soldiers through their paces. Photograph: Alamy
Alexandra Topping

Two soldiers have died during a training exercise at the weekend in the Brecon Beacons on the hottest day of the year, the Ministry of Defence has said.
The servicemen, whose families have been informed, were on a routine exercise in the Brecon Beacons national park on Saturday. A third man is in a serious condition in hospital. The incident is now being investigated by Dyfed Powys police as well as the MoD, and an autopsy will follow.
The deaths occurred on the hottest day of the year so far in Wales with temperatures reaching 30C (86F) in Powys. "The MoD can confirm that it is working with Dyfed-Powys police to investigate an incident during a training exercise on the Brecon Beacons on Saturday in which two members of military personnel died," said the MoD in a statement.
"The two servicemen's next of kin have been informed. More information will be released in due course but it would be inappropriate to comment further at this stage."
News of the deaths has been met with shock in the nearby town of Brecon, which is home to the Infantry Battle School (IBS). The Brecon mayor and Powys county councillor Matthew Dorrance said: "It's incredibly sad for the friends and family of the people who have lost their lives and our thoughts are with the person who is injured. In one way we've been blessed with the weather but for people working in this heat, they're tough conditions."
Dorrance said troops were regularly seen training in the area.
"We're proud of our links with the military in the town," he added.
The rough and remote terrain of the Brecon Beacons is used by the British military for a wide range of exercises for various army personnel. The IBS is based at Brecon and regular and special forces soldiers are regularly tested and trained on the unforgiving landscape. The infantry regiments of the British Army train at Sennybridge in the area, there is an army base in Brecon and the SAS has a base at nearby Hereford.
According to the army website, the Brecon Beacons are used because they are demanding and prepare soldiers for the "extraordinary things" they will face once deployed.
"Training for high-intensity, light-role war fighting is the way soldiers and officers are prepared for any operational situation they may face – conventional war, counter-insurgency, security sector reform, peacekeeping or supporting civil authorities," says the website.
"Training at IBS is delivered here by high-quality instructors with a wealth of operational experience, and rated in the top third of the infantry. This ensures that the training is as close to current operations and pre-deployment training as possible, whilst maintaining the ability to train for high-intensity war fighting. IBS delivers competent and confident commanders for the field army by running command and leadership training, infantry tactics training, weapons training, and live firing range qualifications. It also provides specialist training teams to assist foreign forces in their development, and allocates some places on courses for overseas students."
Earlier this year an army captain, Rob Carnegie, was found dead on the snow-covered Corn Du mountain. It was thought he was attempting a gruelling 17-40 mile march in freezing conditions in the Brecon Beacons as part of a selection process for the Special Air Service when he collapsed and died.

 

[dave53]

very sad news my thoughts are with there families
unfortunatuly people who live near, no that it is an unforgiving place even for those who are highly trained my regards to there families

 

[Barn Owl]

Haven't read the full news story but summer or winter anyone can succumb to the prevailing weather conditions in this country,a tragic lesson for all to learn from i think.
I know i've had to drink a good gallon of liquid each shift whilst doing a couple in the heat of the past week.Maybe more in fact.

 

[Mouse040]

So very sad but I can't help but feel for the poor guy who was making the decisions

 

[wingstoo]

It probably happens more often than we hear, or realise.

Back in 1982 as part of my RAF Basic training we had one recruit taken to hospital with heat exhaustion after a mile or so jog back to base on MFT (Military Field Training) around the perry track of the airfield, it didn't help that we were in NBC kit at the time, including respirators. The particular NCO who had ordered the jog back was reprimanded for his part in hospitalizing one and putting the rest of us at risk. It could have been very different in outcome, but without such training we would not be the best in the world.

 

[Barn Owl]

It probably happens more often than we hear, or realise.

Back in 1982 as part of my RAF Basic training we had one recruit taken to hospital with heat exhaustion after a mile or so jog back to base on MFT (Military Field Training) around the perry track of the airfield, it didn't help that we were in NBC kit at the time, including respirators. The particular NCO who had ordered the jog back was reprimanded for his part in hospitalizing one and putting the rest of us at risk. It could have been very different in outcome, but without such training we would not be the best in the world.

Aye, i have to agree with you there, had one of the best swimmers and breath holders hospitalised at a 'fun' swimming gala from my team once but all a learning and humbling experience.

 

[Dannytsg]

RIP Thoughts go out to the families of those who have fallen.

 

[rik_uk3]

Very sad news indeed.

 

[Gray]

Its bad enough to lose our lads in combat, losing them in training.......i dont know. I dont know what to say. Gutted for the families, RIP.

 

[wingstoo]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...in-heat-while-training-in-Brecon-Beacons.html

[h=1]Two soldiers die in heat while training in Brecon Beacons[/h]
Two Territorial Army soldiers have collapsed and died during strenuous
physical exercise on the hottest day of the year.

Bugger! These guys were part timers, which means they will be missed by more than just their units but also their day job colleagues as well...

 

[santaman2000]

My prayers are with their families and their comrades.

Dehydration can always be a danger but don't dismiss outright heat exhaustion or heat stroke; both can occur even when fully hydrated.

 

[wingstoo]

Sennybridge training area was apparently where this happened, It gets nasty up there in the heat, last time I was there we got our heads down and waited until it was cooler before moving on again, but we could, when training for combat it isn't really the done thing to lie down in the shade for a few hours.

 

[rik_uk3]

I'm up camping at 'our' spot in Sennybridge on the 23rd. The Beacons is very exposed, very little shelter so in winter you feel the cold and in summer you feel the heat; you really are exposed to the elements there.

Take a group of folk, wearing the same clothes, drinking the same amount of water and heat exhaustion will hit at roughly the same time and with nobody present with a 'clear head' to spot the build up accidents can happen.

They are in my prayers tonight.

 

[presterjohn]

This (without knowing all the facts) seems to me like someone in charge not thinking ahead. People tend to go with the flow and no one wants to stick their heads up and say "I'm stopping this before someone gets hurt" It happens in civvy street as well as the army. It takes bigger balls to cancel something than it does to carry on when conditions are not in your favour. No doubt a corporal or sergeant will get his **** kicked for this but realistically it is the officers that set the mood for these things and they should be the ones facing the inquiries.

 

[santaman2000]

Here it's supposed to be mandatorily halted or modified whenever the heat index rises above a certain (predetermined) level; and there are supposed to be observers on site who aren't participating in the actual exertion of the training to monitor those who are. Even so, there are occasional problems.

 

[wingstoo]

News this morning is that this may have been a selection activity for "R" Squadron or possibly 21 or 23 Reg't which is the TA Version of the Special Air Service. So no Officers or NCOs as such giving orders, though it might have been possible to "Endex" the selection.


http://uk.news.yahoo.com/heat-may-caused-deaths-ta-soldiers-044304801.html#5siUQGC

 

[Wayland]

A civvie witness on channel four news tonight said that he was approached by two soldiers asking for water, he didn't say whether he had given then any or not, but he did say the soldiers said they were going to be able to get water from a stream marked on the map ahead.

Apparently, many of the streams were dried up.

Is it possible that these guys were relying on refilling bottles instead of carrying adequate supplies to reduce pack weight?

 

[wingstoo]

From the bits I have heard they were meant to be carrying 3ltrs of water, but also carrying water sterilizing tablets to supplement their supply en-route.

They were on selection, and were carrying in excess of 55lb of Bergan equipment on their backs as well as anything else they had to take, they were also against the clock and with a mind-set to complete the course in as short a time as possible, excess weight slows them down, so minimizing where possible and using natural sources is what it is all about.

Selection for Special forces is as real as it gets without actually being in enemy territories, so they work hard and they play hard, and sometimes they get it wrong, which is a terrible loss to a lot of friends and family.

I only know one ex "R" Squadron member, he was given the opportunity to go to Desert Storm and he grabbed it with both hands, he did come back, thanks to his training. If they don't play real then they have no chance when it is real.

 

[Ronnie]

Agreed, SAS selection is as extreme as it gets - I suspect SAS(R) isn't much easier: http://www.army.mod.uk/specialforces/30603.aspx

Note that the sword is double edged...

This Wiki Quote is telling:

The names of those members of the SAS who have died on duty are inscribed on the regimental clock tower at Stirling lines, those whose names are inscribed are said by surviving members to have "failed to beat the clock"

The best have to push themselves to the limit of endurance, and there is intrinsic risk in that

 

[wingstoo]

The SAS cap badge is not a winged dagger, but King Arthur's sword Excalibur with flames

Although for many it is and will always be described as a "Winged Dagger".