My Medlar is turning up next week 
Tom - what about sorrel? Should be period correct and tastes wonderful.
Tom - what about sorrel? Should be period correct and tastes wonderful.
Growing early ( as in Iron Age/ Saxon ) food plants?
- Thread starter tombear
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If you write or phone to Barony Mills, Birsay, Orkney and ask nicely (send some postage, perhaps) they will send you a couple of handfuls of Bere seeds, very useful stuff with a long, long history.
http://www.birsay.org.uk/baronymill.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bere
http://www.birsay.org.uk/baronymill.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bere
Cheers folk! Plenty more to think about there. Again we we all out all day and after a 7 mile walk (last year I'd go that far to change my library books) which has left me a moaning wreck I don't fancy digging!
Parbajtor, Herself definately wants some fruit trees but that's for th future. If its not too much trouble some seeds, and instructions, would b great, thanks
Red, we have a big patch if sorrel in the shady part of the herb garden out front, fighting it out with the wild strawberries. They came from a garden centre so decidedly non period. I really like them, the more vinegary the better!
Bere, sounds really interesting Ian, I look into that, it's definately oat and barley country around here. There's p,entry of space for small patches of them, probably more to us the stems for making stuff rather than a crop to eat.
atb
Tom
Parbajtor, Herself definately wants some fruit trees but that's for th future. If its not too much trouble some seeds, and instructions, would b great, thanks
Red, we have a big patch if sorrel in the shady part of the herb garden out front, fighting it out with the wild strawberries. They came from a garden centre so decidedly non period. I really like them, the more vinegary the better!
Bere, sounds really interesting Ian, I look into that, it's definately oat and barley country around here. There's p,entry of space for small patches of them, probably more to us the stems for making stuff rather than a crop to eat.
atb
Tom
Bere only thrives on acid soils Tom - so check yours before trying it (I wanted to grow it but was told it wouldn't work here)
But Red, doesn't that line of argument apply to all of the old time crops?
None of them grew very well in their natural state which is why they were selectively bred to acclimatise them to the surrounding habitat if they were not native and also to increase their yields so they became worth growing with better return for the effort put in.
Tombear will find that growing the ancient strains will be hard work, adjusting soil, air and moisture from the modern conditions to those of yore for very little return except for the interest and fun of it.
Have a go, you will never know if you don't try. The Romans introduced grape vines to these isles, that was a leap of faith.
None of them grew very well in their natural state which is why they were selectively bred to acclimatise them to the surrounding habitat if they were not native and also to increase their yields so they became worth growing with better return for the effort put in.
Tombear will find that growing the ancient strains will be hard work, adjusting soil, air and moisture from the modern conditions to those of yore for very little return except for the interest and fun of it.
Have a go, you will never know if you don't try. The Romans introduced grape vines to these isles, that was a leap of faith.
We'd be almost growing in tubs, just as examples rather than a crop, so we can control the acidity I guess. 'Need to source some stone ground flour made from the stuff.
atb
tom
atb
tom
Not really, quite a few crops are not acid lovers or alkali lovers for example - some are certainly fussier than others.
By 'line of argument' I was also thinking of all the other factors that affect growth and yield:
Day length, moisture, temperature, humidity, wind force, nutrients, trace minerals, root support, CO₂ levels and on and on and on.
Many centuries of bioengineering have given us crops that are a long way from their ancestors and many of those ancestors have gone or are hard to identify. Whether the latter is a good or bad thing is certainly up for discussion. Personally I am for the preservation of species and strains at any cost, many are not.
By the bye; what is your position on Smallpox? Should it be preserved or annihilated?
Day length, moisture, temperature, humidity, wind force, nutrients, trace minerals, root support, CO₂ levels and on and on and on.
Many centuries of bioengineering have given us crops that are a long way from their ancestors and many of those ancestors have gone or are hard to identify. Whether the latter is a good or bad thing is certainly up for discussion. Personally I am for the preservation of species and strains at any cost, many are not.
By the bye; what is your position on Smallpox? Should it be preserved or annihilated?
Oh we are definitely going for the for the fun of it end of the spectrum, not to sustain us! The youngest wants to plant modern strains of things like spuds and it will be easy enough to find out what does well here. I'll restrict him to stuff we ain't growing the old versions of so there's less chance of cross pollination so the seeds should be goid to do next year No one near by does veg, it's all boring flowers and lawns. I think the nearest allotments are at least a quarter of a mile away. Not that far as the bee flies but better than next door.
With us being new to it were not expecting bumper crops, mainly good healthy exercise and the start of a learning curve. Still nowts going to get done until we get digging!
atb
Tom
With us being new to it were not expecting bumper crops, mainly good healthy exercise and the start of a learning curve. Still nowts going to get done until we get digging!
atb
Tom
The kind chap at Barony Mill has already replied to my enquirer and said they would be happy to send some seed for Teds project! What nice folk!
Despite the forecast its stayed dry so far and since on Wednesdays the school finishes at 2.30 we may get some weeding and digging done today. The forecast for the weekend is looking better.
ATB
Tom
By any chance doe any one have some suitable oat seed? I'm still not sure what the best term would be, early? Primitive? This is most certainly oat and barley country so we ain't even going to try and grow spelt or emmer, unless its in pots inside for samples.
Ps, I've not tested yet but from reading up the soil is already acidic, so much so that regular liming was required. The local leisure centre is at a place called Marl Pits where they dug the stuff out.
Despite the forecast its stayed dry so far and since on Wednesdays the school finishes at 2.30 we may get some weeding and digging done today. The forecast for the weekend is looking better.
ATB
Tom
By any chance doe any one have some suitable oat seed? I'm still not sure what the best term would be, early? Primitive? This is most certainly oat and barley country so we ain't even going to try and grow spelt or emmer, unless its in pots inside for samples.
Ps, I've not tested yet but from reading up the soil is already acidic, so much so that regular liming was required. The local leisure centre is at a place called Marl Pits where they dug the stuff out.
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In that case The Bere should thrive Tom.
I'm not seeing many more leaping forward with seed - if you want to go the "open pollinated, traditional not ancient" route I suggest realseeds - they do the white and purple types
http://www.realseeds.co.uk/carrots.html
They do all the other veg you want too so any I can't supply they should be able to sort.
If you want me to pack up what I've got, drop me a PM with your addy (I never keep them) and how many you want of each type
Red
I'm not seeing many more leaping forward with seed - if you want to go the "open pollinated, traditional not ancient" route I suggest realseeds - they do the white and purple types
http://www.realseeds.co.uk/carrots.html
They do all the other veg you want too so any I can't supply they should be able to sort.
If you want me to pack up what I've got, drop me a PM with your addy (I never keep them) and how many you want of each type
Red
Bere meal makes beautiful bannocks and the bere is easier to process than oats.
Oats need to be heated to 'puff' all the layers of chaff so that the grain can be freed. At that stage it's called groats, and is fit for grinding and eating.
I know the 'modern' dietary approach is to include the chaff in everything, but it's damned hard going on the teeth and it's a hard, heavy flour to bake with.
M
and the bere is easier to process than oats.Oats need to be heated to 'puff' all the layers of chaff so that the grain can be freed. At that stage it's called groats, and is fit for grinding and eating.
I know the 'modern' dietary approach is to include the chaff in everything, but it's damned hard going on the teeth and it's a hard, heavy flour to bake with.
M
Cheers Red, I'll get back to you in a moment.
Ive just received then PDF about the the bere meal they grind up there, it's much cheaper than the one health food shop i found that had it, direct it costs £2.50 for a 1.5 kg bag. By the kg in one sack its only £1.26 a kg after 3kg. Since its from the Orkneys the postage is bit of a killer for the lower end, 2kg is £5.60 but if you get a 20kg bag it's "only" £27.70.
if I wasn't in the middle of three kids birthdays I'd get 20kg and split it down myself and pass on the 17kg I don't want at cost. But I would be lynched by herself if I tried it this quarter!
if any one wants the PDF that has the contact details and price ill be happy to pass it on.
Atb
Tom
Ive just received then PDF about the the bere meal they grind up there, it's much cheaper than the one health food shop i found that had it, direct it costs £2.50 for a 1.5 kg bag. By the kg in one sack its only £1.26 a kg after 3kg. Since its from the Orkneys the postage is bit of a killer for the lower end, 2kg is £5.60 but if you get a 20kg bag it's "only" £27.70.
if I wasn't in the middle of three kids birthdays I'd get 20kg and split it down myself and pass on the 17kg I don't want at cost. But I would be lynched by herself if I tried it this quarter!
if any one wants the PDF that has the contact details and price ill be happy to pass it on.
Atb
Tom
Like all viruses, it should be treated with a course of antibiotics, where the afflicted stop taking the pills as soon as they feel better. Don't accept any excuses from the GP (after all, what do they know) refuse to leave the surgery until he's prescribed a course of Carbapenems (last year it was Vancomycin, but strangely, this drug is no longer effective against bacillae) and if he kicks up, accuse him of sexual harassment and improper conduct (I'm sure plenty of others supporting your accusations will come out of the woodwork, after all, there's no smoke without fire, eh?).
Bl@@dy doctors, scientists and engineers, they're responsible for all that's wrong with the world. Now I'm going to stuff my face with cakes, drink lots of pop, play on my Playstation and sue the Government because I'm obese.
200 years ago in Scotland the Ministers of every parish wrote an account of their parish. This formed the basis for the statistical accounts of Scotland that evolved into the census.
The Ministers wrote of the great and the good, and the ordinary folks and their lives. Many of them mentioned the scourge that was smallpox and the ravages it had through their people. But, in amongst those comments, about, "The smallpox took fourteen from the Parish this Autumn, and left ten enfeebled", there are the paragraphs from those who's parishes have been blessed by vaccination, and the unparalleled delight in the words written hundreds of years ago, that none have died, none have been blinded, none have been crippled, orphaned, widowed, left destitute, by smallpox.
"The disease killed an estimated 400,000 Europeans annually during the closing years of the 18th century (including five reigning monarchs) and was responsible for a third of all blindness. Of all those infected, 20–60%—and over 80% of infected children—died from the disease."
If you look for smallpox on Wikipedia there is a photograph of a little girl with smallpox, and it would make you weep.
I have a scar on my arm, as does virtually everyone of my generation. We ought to wear it with incredible pride because that scar means our children have none.
M
The Ministers wrote of the great and the good, and the ordinary folks and their lives. Many of them mentioned the scourge that was smallpox and the ravages it had through their people. But, in amongst those comments, about, "The smallpox took fourteen from the Parish this Autumn, and left ten enfeebled", there are the paragraphs from those who's parishes have been blessed by vaccination, and the unparalleled delight in the words written hundreds of years ago, that none have died, none have been blinded, none have been crippled, orphaned, widowed, left destitute, by smallpox.
"The disease killed an estimated 400,000 Europeans annually during the closing years of the 18th century (including five reigning monarchs) and was responsible for a third of all blindness. Of all those infected, 20–60%—and over 80% of infected children—died from the disease."
If you look for smallpox on Wikipedia there is a photograph of a little girl with smallpox, and it would make you weep.
I have a scar on my arm, as does virtually everyone of my generation. We ought to wear it with incredible pride because that scar means our children have none.
M
Hi Red
with our luck the bere will be the only stuff to thrive!
found this lot as well,
http://www.wildflowershop.co.uk/WF Indivl Seeds/WF Seeds M to Z.htm#Ramsons
and if you pan down to the "wilds" there's some there that look the business.
I'm the same with addresses, I'll pm you next. Not quite sure about how much of each, I don't want to be cheeky, also since this is all very experimental for us I don't think planting too many of any one type to see what will grow. Can I leave it to your judgement, erring on the low side rather than the high.
atb
tom
with our luck the bere will be the only stuff to thrive!
found this lot as well,
http://www.wildflowershop.co.uk/WF Indivl Seeds/WF Seeds M to Z.htm#Ramsons
and if you pan down to the "wilds" there's some there that look the business.
I'm the same with addresses, I'll pm you next. Not quite sure about how much of each, I don't want to be cheeky, also since this is all very experimental for us I don't think planting too many of any one type to see what will grow. Can I leave it to your judgement, erring on the low side rather than the high.
atb
tom
Sure - I'll have a dig and see if I have anything that may tickle you
As an aside I've just had a honking great Medlar tree turn up (a present) - over 7' not counting the root ball - planted it along from the Black Mulberry...should make for an "interesting fruit area".
One day I plan to have a fruit salad of Medlar, Wild Service, True Service and Mulberry. Just because I reckon I'll be the only person who can from their own garden
As an aside I've just had a honking great Medlar tree turn up (a present) - over 7' not counting the root ball - planted it along from the Black Mulberry...should make for an "interesting fruit area".
One day I plan to have a fruit salad of Medlar, Wild Service, True Service and Mulberry. Just because I reckon I'll be the only person who can from their own garden
Why don't we find more of these trees growing wild ? Are they very tender ? I always kind of thought that the 'originals' would be like sloes and geans and pretty tough 
The West coast is mild enough to grow palm trees, would these trees not grow there too ?
Interesting orchard/woodland you're creating
cheers,
M
The West coast is mild enough to grow palm trees, would these trees not grow there too ?Interesting orchard/woodland you're creating
cheers,
M
Honestly no idea when it comes to Medlars Mary. The Service Trees I understand - the climate is now all wrong for them to germinate (or so I am told), so new specimens only occur through suckering and transplantation. When these grow on a bit, I plan to propagate a few more and do our bit for safeguarding them.
We still have a few more to add of course - but space is tight now
We still have a few more to add of course - but space is tight now
xylaria
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Medlar seed take two winters to germinate. 18 months!!!! Two long cold periods to cold scarify. Snakes head fatillaries arent that hard.
