Greenhouse heaters

[cbr6fs]

Friend I suggest you rein in your attitude, I know 100% what I'm talking about from many years of scientific research not internet postings. You are welcome to act in anyway you want, as will I but please do not try to insult other peoples intelligence.

You are "advising" people it is safe to burn a candle in any environment.

You stated:

Sorry but the chance of CO poisoning from candles if nearly zero,

Which is incorrect and dangerous

They are burning very slowly, well controlled and unstably.

What is it, do they burn controlled or unstable, you can't have both.

They produce very small amounts of CO

As i've stated several times now, they ONLY form CO once the oxygen level has dropped, if the oxygen level is normal the form no detectable CO.

and will go out quickly if oxygen levels drop.

Absolutely 100% inaccurate
Sure they will eventually go out, but you''ll be dead a LONG time before that

Nearly anywhere is adequately ventilated for candle use.

Again absolute 100% rubbish

You then say you know 100% what your talking about, so if you do why would you post inaccurate and downright dangerous and misleading information?
Either you have no idea what your talking about or your intentionally misleading people in a way that is likely to injure or kill someone.
Which is it?

 

[cbr6fs]

Be easier and safer to ban anything with a flame from going inside a tent, no stoves, heaters, wood burners, lanterns, candles, fags, Brier pipes, spliffs, rollies, cigars, lighters and matches et al and just rely on an LED headtorch and cold rations then try and rest and not think about what if your mate goes down with Spontaneous Human Combustion after all your planning and you die from the fumes off his smouldering body while you sleep

Agreed

To be honest though Richard it's basic common sense not have a naked flame in most polyester based tents.
I have witnessed a tent go up in flames from a stray ember and i don't fancy many peoples chances of getting out in time it went THAT quickly.

Of course there are shelters that are specifically designed and manufactured to have stoves inside, as these have purpose built flues the risk is dramatically reduced.

 

[bilmo-p5]

...it's basic common sense not have a naked flame in most polyester based tents.

What nonsense!

 

[ex member pyrophil]

all the experts out i see lol.

One of my mates knocked a colman stove over in his tent, he managed to toss the ball of fire out the door, not a pretty sight by the time it got put out.
That did not stop his burning sleeping bag burning his tent down.
luck no one got burnt
uklucky for me i had to put up with him in my tent for the night lol.
play safe guys.

 

[cbr6fs]

What nonsense!

Aye because ALL tents are made out of special fire proof material imported from alien technology




In all seriousness though, has the level of augmentative trolling and know it alls come to a point where folks are saying it's ok to have a naked flame in any tent.

[video=youtube;jeQS8DFfU2Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeQS8DFfU2Q[/video]

[video=youtube;w492-EVCHQo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w492-EVCHQo[/video]

[video=youtube;xMmTGXmnatc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMmTGXmnatc[/video]

[video=youtube;WAfVHNKOduo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAfVHNKOduo[/video]

[video=youtube;v-c7bUWBNxQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-c7bUWBNxQ[/video]


Come on guys, we get young kids on here looking to us for direction and advice, lets think about what we are typing and have responsible opinions if it's likely to affect the lives of others.

 

[ex member pyrophil]

nice vids. have to tell my mate he is on youtube lol. thats pretty much what his tent looked like.

no such thing as fireproof, even diamonds can burn.

 

[Zingmo]

CO2 build up is difficult to die from as it triggers a response in your brain that makes you pant and it will wake you up. Remember hiding from monsters under the duvet? Eventually you have to come up for air.
Oxygen depletion on it's own will not wake you up. If a flame were to use up all the oxygen in the tent, then that would be likely to kill you before CO became a problem.
CO is so deadly as it can build up in the tent before oxygen is depleted and without CO2 building up. This happens when the combustion does not have enough oxygen. There can be plenty in the air but if it isn't getting to where burning is happening fast enough then you will get CO. You may be lucky enough to wake up with a headache before it is too late.
If you are a smoker then your blood is already loaded with carboxy-haemoglobin and you will succumb more quickly.

As for candles, they do use oxygen, but then so do you and so does your mate. You need ventilation or you will wake up gasping. Don't burn a candle in a space capsule or a submarine.

Z

 

[bilmo-p5]

In all seriousness though, has the level of augmentative trolling and know it alls come to a point where folks are saying it's ok to have a naked flame in any tent.

No, indeed it hasn't, but the whole issue of naked flames and, in particular, cooking in tents has become a taboo engendered and promoted by people who ought to know better. Given a good working knowledge of one's equipment, including its shortfalls and hazards, the exercise of a little common sense and a good deal of care, there is no reason why a naked flame appliance such as a camp stove should not be safely used in all but the tiniest of synthetic tents.
As a result of the non-education of being told 'don't do that; it's dangerous,' rather than, 'this is how you can safely cook in your tent should the need arise', many modern campers have no idea, so when it is cold and wet and blowing they lack the skills and confidence to perform what is basically a simple task, and that's when the accidents happen.
I'm not disputing the fact that many modern tents will burn readily , but I am disputing the argument that because this is so, it is automatically dangerous to have any naked flame within one. It is as dangerous or as safe as the person concerned makes it.
There are a great many dangerous aspects to outdoor recreation. We don't tell people not to use axes and knives because they're dangerous, do we? No, we try to educate them in the safe use of sharps. Similarly, education is the key to the safe use of flame.

 

[wingstoo]

even burning incense in a poorly ventilated room can cause CO poisoning.

Would have to be a really big amount though...and quite a small room.

Just remember that Ventilation for flueless appliances must always be direct to the outside of the building. So the same will be necessary for a tent.

 

[maddave]

Don't do it !! CO is odorless and deadly. It is heavier than air so will sit nicely on the ground where you are. Even in winter a small candle lantern will heat a tent remarkably well but blow it out before you sleep!!

 

[ex member pyrophil]

and if you really really have to use a stove in a tent do it with a clear head, dont drink, and smoke outside like these bushboys lol

 

[kiltedpict]

Don't do it !! CO is odorless and deadly. It is heavier than air so will sit nicely on the ground where you are. Even in winter a small candle lantern will heat a tent remarkably well but blow it out before you sleep!!

I used to think so too but I'm afraid CO is actually slightly lighter than air. Thats the reason all manufacturers advise their CO monitors be installed at head height.

That said, the general advice is sound!

 

[rik_uk3]

No, indeed it hasn't, but the whole issue of naked flames and, in particular, cooking in tents has become a taboo engendered and promoted by people who ought to know better. Given a good working knowledge of one's equipment, including its shortfalls and hazards, the exercise of a little common sense and a good deal of care, there is no reason why a naked flame appliance such as a camp stove should not be safely used in all but the tiniest of synthetic tents.
As a result of the non-education of being told 'don't do that; it's dangerous,' rather than, 'this is how you can safely cook in your tent should the need arise', many modern campers have no idea, so when it is cold and wet and blowing they lack the skills and confidence to perform what is basically a simple task, and that's when the accidents happen.
I'm not disputing the fact that many modern tents will burn readily , but I am disputing the argument that because this is so, it is automatically dangerous to have any naked flame within one. It is as dangerous or as safe as the person concerned makes it.
There are a great many dangerous aspects to outdoor recreation. We don't tell people not to use axes and knives because they're dangerous, do we? No, we try to educate them in the safe use of sharps. Similarly, education is the key to the safe use of flame.

Very, very well put Ian, sums up my feeling completely.

 

[Robbi]

Very, very well put Ian, sums up my feeling completely.

+1 on that.

 

[bigroomboy]

You are "advising" people it is safe to burn a candle in any environment.

You stated:

Which is incorrect and dangerous


What is it, do they burn controlled or unstable, you can't have both.



As i've stated several times now, they ONLY form CO once the oxygen level has dropped, if the oxygen level is normal the form no detectable CO.


Absolutely 100% inaccurate
Sure they will eventually go out, but you''ll be dead a LONG time before that


Again absolute 100% rubbish

You then say you know 100% what your talking about, so if you do why would you post inaccurate and downright dangerous and misleading information?
Either you have no idea what your talking about or your intentionally misleading people in a way that is likely to injure or kill someone.
Which is it?

cbr6fs, I don't understand why you continue to be so insulting, this is a forum to share information, not impose your opinions on others.

This thread has gone all over the place, and whilst I've been driving up the M6 after your post has moved on to the fire risk.

Firstly I completely agree the CO is extremely dangerous and so is fire risk in a tent but these are things that can be managed using informed decisions made by the persons involved, without scare mongering. I would be unlikely to keep a candle lit whilst I was asleep primarily for the accidental fire risk but not for a CO risk. Its like saying the is a real risk of serious injury using knives and the like so never use one... that would be the wrong way to look at it, the best way is to learn how to use it safely.

I will answer your questions impartially to aid debate.

"You are "advising" people it is safe to burn a candle in any environment."

Thats not what I said, I'm saying even in the worst case with a four season tent with all vents closed in still conditions, it is not a sealed system and the ventilation would be adequate for a candle. How can I know this? well its designed for a number of people to be in there without there being any noticeable change in the atmosphere, it is not a sealed system, my sitting room is approx 4 times the size of a tent but probably with worse ventilation yet I burn 6 - 8 candles at once in there but the CO alarm always registers 0 ppm, it is common advice in a snow cave or similar to have a candle lit for light, warmth and importantly to warn the vent hole has become blocked, see link to ray below at about 3 minutes

<span style="background-color: rgb(250, 250, 250);"><font color="#333333">[video=youtube;XOJQPz1s-1c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOJQPz1s-1c[/video]

 

[bigroomboy]

You stated:

Originally Posted by bigroomboy
Sorry but the chance of CO poisoning from candles if nearly zero,



Which is incorrect and dangerous

Read Cody Lundin's, When all hell breaks loose. He discusses it in detail in there, but the amount produced over unit time is small enough for diffusion to easily ventilate it

Originally Posted by bigroomboy
They are burning very slowly, well controlled and unstably.




What is it, do they burn controlled or unstable, you can't have both.

You are confusing terms, controlled means the fire will stay the same size without difficulty, unstable means there are two states of a candle, lit and unlit. When lit it is unstable as its position in that state is tenuous, it is easily put out.

Originally Posted by bigroomboy
They produce very small amounts of CO



As i've stated several times now, they ONLY form CO once the oxygen level has dropped, if the oxygen level is normal the form no detectable CO.

A candle is a small controlled flame useing little oxygen which is easily replaced under the conditions mentioned above, so you answer the whole question.

Originally Posted by bigroomboy
and will go out quickly if oxygen levels drop.



Absolutely 100% inaccurate

Sure they will eventually go out, but you''ll be dead a LONG time before that

Ask Ray in the video or put a splint in a test tube like in the secondary school experiment

Originally Posted by bigroomboy
Nearly anywhere is adequately ventilated for candle use.




Again absolute 100% rubbish

apart from sealed systems or extremely confined spaces yes, 100 % true

You then say you know 100% what your talking about, so if you do why would you post inaccurate and downright dangerous and misleading information?
Either you have no idea what your talking about or your intentionally misleading people in a way that is likely to injure or kill someone.
Which is it?

Totally unnecessary insults, where is your evidence?

 

[cbr6fs]

No, indeed it hasn't, but the whole issue of naked flames and, in particular, cooking in tents has become a taboo engendered and promoted by people who ought to know better. Given a good working knowledge of one's equipment, including its shortfalls and hazards, the exercise of a little common sense and a good deal of care, there is no reason why a naked flame appliance such as a camp stove should not be safely used in all but the tiniest of synthetic tents.
As a result of the non-education of being told 'don't do that; it's dangerous,' rather than, 'this is how you can safely cook in your tent should the need arise', many modern campers have no idea, so when it is cold and wet and blowing they lack the skills and confidence to perform what is basically a simple task, and that's when the accidents happen.
I'm not disputing the fact that many modern tents will burn readily , but I am disputing the argument that because this is so, it is automatically dangerous to have any naked flame within one. It is as dangerous or as safe as the person concerned makes it.
There are a great many dangerous aspects to outdoor recreation. We don't tell people not to use axes and knives because they're dangerous, do we? No, we try to educate them in the safe use of sharps. Similarly, education is the key to the safe use of flame.

The op was talking in particular about candles, my post was in direct response to this.

As such there is a vast difference between having candle in a tent to cooking in a tent.
With a candle your likely relaxing, reading snoozing etc.
When cooking you will have bell doors open, your attention on the job in hand and your hands free to toss the stove out if something happens.

Even when cooking there are different risks associated with different fuelled stoves that people need to be aware of, igniting a gas stove can cause flare up's, you need to be careful of spillage when lighting a meths burner etc etc.

While i'm at it, there is also a vast difference between cooking in a teepee style tent to cooking in a tiny 1 or 2 man tent and different risks associated with either.


If someone is using a candle for heat then it seems pretty obvious to me that they are not going to have the tent doors wide open.
They're also going to be tucked up in their sleeping bag, so more ready to snooze than for a quick exit.
If they do snooze they then run the risk of knocking over the candle in their sleep.

Do you see the difference?

 

[Robbi]

"The op was talking in particular about candles, my post was in direct response to this."

How much CO do you think a Paraffin Greenhouse Heater would produce, would it be dangerous to have one burning in the porch of a tent, am i risking not waking up the next morning?

where's the candles mentioned in this OP ?

 

[cbr6fs]

Read Cody Lundin's, When all hell breaks loose. He discusses it in detail in there, but the amount produced over unit time is small enough for diffusion to easily ventilate it



You are confusing terms, controlled means the fire will stay the same size without difficulty, unstable means there are two states of a candle, lit and unlit. When lit it is unstable as its position in that state is tenuous, it is easily put out.




A candle is a small controlled flame useing little oxygen which is easily replaced under the conditions mentioned above, so you answer the whole question.



Ask Ray in the video or put a splint in a test tube like in the secondary school experiment



apart from sealed systems or extremely confined spaces yes, 100 % true



Totally unnecessary insults, where is your evidence?

What are you talking about, who are you quoting?

Who are these people you mention and what qualifications do they have to render them experts?


Your pulling a snippet of information here and a fraction of a quote there and joining the dots, real life does not work like that, just like wooden splints do NOT breath.
There is no doubt a flame in a sealed environment will go out i said as much, what your overlooking though is the essential fact that if a person was in that sealed environment they be long dead BEFORE the flame went out.

Here is an experiment you can try at home.
Find a 1 litre tub, light a candle and place the tub over the candle making sure you have a seal at the bottom.

If that flame lasts more than 1 min then your doing very well.
That's 1 min until there is not enough oxygen to continue to supply the flame, the deadly CO limit will arrive a LOT sooner.

Now calculate that the average person consumes around 7 litres of air a min, only 20% being oxygen.


You see how the sums are adding up.
You need a decent amount of ventilation to SAFELY burn a candle in a small environment like a tent, and that's not even mentioning the fire risk.

So rather than taking sound bites of information from people who really have absolutely no professional qualifications, sit down, do the maths and err on the side of caution before you start "advising" people it's all fine.

 

[cbr6fs]

"The op was talking in particular about candles, my post was in direct response to this."






where's the candles mentioned in this OP ?

Come on Robbi please don't start with the bickering picking hairs nonsense, you know exactly what my post was in response to.

The theory of it going out is true for a simple combustion device such as a candle

Or should i just leave people to make dangerous assumptions and risk peoples lives?