Goretex, as great as they say?

[Geuf]

Gore-Tex is a registered trademark of W.L. Gore & Associates best known for its use in relation to waterproof/breathable fabrics. Gore-Tex was co-invented by Wilbert L. Gore (1912-1986) and his son, Robert W. Gore. For its invention, Robert W. Gore was inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame in 2006.

Gore-Tex based fabric material is composed of a thin, porous fluoropolymer membrane with a urethane coating that is bonded to a fabric, usually nylon or polyester. The membrane has about 9 billion pores per square inch, each of which is approximately 20,000 times smaller than a water droplet, making it impenetrable to liquid water while still allowing the smaller sized water vapor to pass through. The result is a material that is somewhat breathable, water resistant, and also windproof. The outer fabric is treated with water repellent and seams are sealed to prevent water leakage through pinholes caused during the sewing of the fabric. The urethane coating provides a protective layer and also prevents contamination (i.e. body oils) from wetting the laminate and allowing wicking of moisture through the membrane.
source: Wikipedia11/02/2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goretex)

Now. From anything, anywhere and anybody (especially the gore-tex producers/sellers) I hear the same thing: gore-tex is a lightweight, breathable, rainproof fabric with lifetime guarantee and it is supposed to be a mind boggling spaceage superthing. BUT. My personal experience with gore-tex is not that great as everybody says it should be. Now I'm not trying to flame this product or the opinion of people who have great experience with it. I want to give my view on this and I truly wonder what your experiences and views are about goretex.

I've had a few gore-tex overpants, jackets, rucksack-covers and bivybags and I must say it's a very breathable fabric but it still leaks water. The overpants I understand. those where second hand army overpants. The same for my rucksack cover. For the moist inside of my bivybag after a nightssleep in heavy rain ( under a small leaking tarp though) is also an explenation; it could be my own condense. although I doubt that, but I have no proof. But, about 2 monts ago I bought a brandnew goretex Mammut jacket. it's a great thing and I love it. but still, after 15 minutes of rain. it got moist on the inside, and that I did not like.

So what I'm wondering now is: am i the only one with this experience regarding goretex, or are there more people who have had similar experiences? Or, am I maybe doing something completely wrong with this fabric and can you give me any tips on usage/maintenance. Or is it just that goretex isn't as great as they say...?

 

[andyn]

I've only got a couple of Goretex items, and i've never had them leak on me. The only moisture that stays on the inside is my condensation as I don't find they breath that well at all compared to natural material. So yeah, its great for what it is...BUT its not prefect and there are some older designed materials that do a better job for some things, worse for others. Likewise some new materials like eVENT that are supposidly better than Goretex still have some draw backs.

I don't think their is a perfect material yet. There is always a downside to them for some activities. Its more a case of choosing the right material (tool) for the job (which becomes costly )

 

[gregorach]

Exactly what Andy said! Goretex is not perfect - I think a lot of people's dissappointment with it comes from unrealistic expectations. Although their marketing blurb doesn't do anything to help there...

It's suprising just how much water the human body puts out in the form of sweat, so condensation is more-or-less inevitable. Goretex may suffer from condensation, but it's not nearly as bad as older non-breathable waterproof fabrics.

The important question is really: is it the best available fabric for a particular purpose at a given price point?

 

[Rebel]

As Andyn said it's not perfect. However it (and other similar fabrics) made it possible for me to work out in the rain in relative comfort when before I would have a) been very wet, b) run for cover, c) been wet and sticky in plastic, d) been damp in waxed cotton.

I've found it keeps me dry in hours of pouring rain. Of course when you are out in those conditions water will find the slightest chink in your armour to penetrate. The seams on my North Face jacket are hopeless and let loads of water in. An older GoreTex jacket I have from Dickies has no Velcro fasteners on the sleeves so any tasks you do that involve reaching up allow water to drip down the sleeves so I end up with wet arms (the hood is very good either but at least it's removable).

I like the fact that it is light weight too and it doesn't smell (well not if I don't get it dirty anyway). I can roll some of my jackets up and stick them in a backpack so I don't have to wear it unless I really need it.

I have a small collection of GoreTex jackets and I give them the thumbs up. I haven't found anything better or more convenient at any price point.

 

[addyb]

No, Gore-Tex is not anything incredibly fantastic. However, I've used it for years and will continue to do so when the conditions dictate. Gore-Tex, like all WPB garments whether laminated OR coated have a couple inherent drawbacks that science won't be fixing any time soon:

1) The stop breathing once the temperature drops only a few degrees below zero. If it's minus twenty celcius and you're in freezing rain, a Gore-Tex garment is about as breathable as wrapping saran wrap over your body. This is why Ventile continues to be so effective in extremely cold conditions.

2) Degradation of the membrane. Over time, the fabric will actually start to break down and eventually lose it's effectiveness. Gore-Tex, being a PTFE laminate (think Plumbers Tape) won't begin to de-laminate for quite a few years, but once it starts, it snowballs quickly. Coated fabrics such as Entrant, Derzimax, or XALT start to degrade at an earlier point, but the overall process takes longer than a laminate.

3) All WPB garments are 100% reliant on the strength, condition, and effectiveness of their DWR (durable water repellent treatment) that causes the water to bead onto the surface. In prolonged rain (IE: several hours) rain drops begin to soak into the face fabric rendering the membrane's (or coating) ability to breathe nil. On long expeditions, this can be slightly offset by heating up a cooking pot over a store and running the hot pot over a garment to rejuvenate the DWR.

4) The MVT (moisture vapour transfer) ability of a membrane can be maxed out during very strenuous conditions. So, if you're really working hard a Gore-Tex membrane might not be able to keep up your body's rate of sweating. And just like wearing a rubber rain suit, you end up soaked to your skin.

Don't get me wrong, WPB garments do have a nice in the outdoor gear market and they fill it extremely well. I just think that it's a big mistake to think of them as being "the be all end all" of rain gear.

Adam

 

[John Fenna]

For light and comfortable I find Goretex no better realy than many "breathable Waterproofs" and a darn sight more expensive. Has any one tried a lightweight, cheap and cheerful, packaway type over a Ventile. All the comfort of Ventile, plus the cheapo takes any damage, plus if it aint tipping down the Ventile copes more than nicely. I love Ventile.
John

 

[sam_acw]

A couple of points -

• When it stops raining, take off your coat then you won't sweat
• How can you repair it?

 

[fred gordon]

I think that Gore-tex was a child of its time. However, there are other products every bit as good, or better, now. Personally I am a great fan of Paramo. I like their ethical approach, the fact that it can be reproofed and can be stitched.

 

[Jackdaw]

Much prefer Paramo, but in most cases I will use a waxed-cotton jacket as they are virtually indestructable. Pick one up on Eblag like I have for £30 and don't worry about it getting snagged on a branch/thorn etc.

Saying that, I wouldn't use one when in the hills as they are too darned heavy. Each to it's own.

 

[demographic]

I normally avoid cammo jackets like the plague but as one like this one for was left at my house by one of my brothers and its Gore Tex I use it for work.

Its fairly light, not insulated (a good thing in my opinion as I detest insulated jackets and thinsulate boots as sometimes its wet but not cold) and unless it gets wet through the fabric remains breathable.

If your doing heavy lifting or whatever then it still isn't quite as breathable as would be nice but its pretty good.

Cheap also, but if you hold something wet above head height (floor joists, scaffolding boards ) your still going to get water running down the sleeves.

Oh and the hood is massive, great if your wearing a hard hat at work or tin hat in the army but not much cop if your otherwise bare headed as you can't see much.

 

[Dougster]

Amongst a few of my friends, GTX has been dubbed 'Boil in the bag', I made the move to eVent and I'm not diappointed, BUT - If I'm in the hills and moving - I ALWAYS choose softshell. I run hot and my body temp shoves all the moisture out faster than it can work in. Anything with 'waterproof' on it I just use for sedentary activities.

 

[Andy]

It's good but I think manufacturers could do more to aid venting in a lot of garmets. My paramo coat is a little hotter but lets me breath a lot more so I don't get clammy, my biking jacket is tough waterproof and has big vents under the arms and vents all around the chest. It still keeps the wid out as these close up as soon as the wind picks up (or I go down a hill) going up hill when I get hot it lets me breath a lot more then anything else

the paramo coat is fairly heavy and bulky though and at £250 RRP is a lot more then army surplus gortex

 

[singteck]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't need breathable fabric when I am standing still. When I move, the most breathable material that I know of (cotton) still gets wet from all the sweat. Those Goretex would make it worst.

singteck

 

[ArkAngel]

I like my GT clothing but find it no better or worse than other water proof fabrics.

My Berghaus GT jacket has lasted me 11 years and although the repelancy of the fabric is lacking the jacket is still totally waterproof.
That said, my overtrousers, boots have a waterproof membrane in them as well and i find them just as good.
I recently got a North Face down jacket for winter that also has their waterproof membrane in it so i await a downpour in that to see how good it is.
I know a lot of people rate ventile, so i await my BCUK jacket with anticipation to see what i think of it's repelancy qualities.

I find them all quite breathable enough. I am happy to sacrifice a bit of discomfort for complete waterproofness <is that a word??>

 

[Geuf]

I can't stand the fact that in my experience gore-tex isn't as waterproof as they say, nor as breathable. Speaking these words it may seem I'm implying that I hate gore-tex. but strangely enough I don't. I love it. A little bit condese or rain won't make my life unhappy. But since I heard all of your visions about this subject. It pleases me to hear that there are plenty other breathable fabrics that seem, according to your experiences, to be just as good or even better. So in the future I won't be running off going to buy goretex products just because the gore-tex man says so. I think it's an over marketed pruduct. strangely I still love it

 

[John Dixon]

As you a re probably aware gortex only breathes when the outer layer has not become sodden, the water needs to bead off. if this cannot happen usauly due to dirt, the surface area of the coat becomes air tight hence (Sealed by water), thus trapping the condensation within. Once the vapor cools it returns to water. damp dark smelly pits Doh! So gortex works very well when the outershell is clean, so with me that means the new jacket has working life of about a day . then it needs to be washed and the outer shell treated again to encourage beeding. Sounds like its a lot of hard work, i have used gortex supported clothing in alaska, antatica, aviemore, ambleside and around the aouse, not funny i know, and find it works better when the outside ambient tempereture is considerably different from the temp inside the clothing item. so lets be realistic in the uk when its raining its great for low activity. cos i cant keep a jacket clean!!. but in snowy conditions even in scotland it works very well.
But i still feel its a dam expensive piece of kit that only works well for about a day.

 

[scaleyback]

As you a re probably aware gortex only breathes when the outer layer has not become sodden, the water needs to bead off. if this cannot happen usauly due to dirt, the surface area of the coat becomes air tight hence (Sealed by water), thus trapping the condensation within. Once the vapor cools it returns to water. damp dark smelly pits Doh! So gortex works very well when the outershell is clean, so with me that means the new jacket has working life of about a day . then it needs to be washed and the outer shell treated again to encourage beeding. Sounds like its a lot of hard work, i have used gortex supported clothing in alaska, antatica, aviemore, ambleside and around the aouse, not funny i know, and find it works better when the outside ambient tempereture is considerably different from the temp inside the clothing item. so lets be realistic in the uk when its raining its great for low activity. cos i cant keep a jacket clean!!. but in snowy conditions even in scotland it works very well.
But i still feel its a dam expensive piece of kit that only works well for about a day.

total agree, i have owned about 5-6 gotex jakets(have a berghaus mera peak at the moment) and they have all let me down, i must buy the monday morning/ friday afternoon made ones, lol

 

[Zodiak]

I bought one a few years back and it was fantastic for the first winter, we were out in appaling wetraher and I stayed comfortable throughout but by May it was starting to leak.

I rang the manufacturers who told me to wash it and then tumble dry it, which I did but it didn't help.

I rang back they said do it again but spray it with NikWax to stop the outer getting sodden, I did that and it still leaked.

I rang back and they said return it, at first I thought this was good news but they were not planning to replace it, just look. A few weeks later they rang to say the problem was the membrane had broken down over my right shoulder, center of my chest and left hip.

Thats wierd I thought, my ruckasck is quite well balanced, but then I realised it was damage due to wearing a seat belt in the car!!

I can't afford to keep a coat of that price just for outdoor stuff, and have another one for day to day wear they have to do both, so now I wear a fleece and a nylon outer coat when its raining.

Yes I do get bit damp if it rains hard for any length of time, but I hate the damp and cold, so I say this and go home if it gets too bad.

 

[OldBaldGuy]

Most Alaskan hunting guides tell their clients not to bring GoreTex, or any of the "breathable" fabric rain gear on a hunt. They have apparently found, from lots of experience, that the stuff will not handle the rains of Alaska

I have a couple of GoreTex garments, and while I do not sweat in them quite as much as I do in "plastic," I still get damp on the inside from sweat. Haven't had too much problem with rain coming thru. Yet...

 

[Tengu]

I cant afford goretex.

I have to have a plastic cover and several layers.

But now I have a poncho, which Im going to try.