Decades of conservation destroyed in days. By...
- Thread starter JonathanD
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Stuff like this makes me angry, no, furious... and sad at the same time. Jon, I've had this happen to me, and I know exactly how you feel.
Bloody idiots!
And it is happening all the time. Who decided that nature needed to be tidy?
Bloody idiots!
And it is happening all the time. Who decided that nature needed to be tidy?
Dreadhead
Bushcrafter through and through
they did the same at forest drive by me we had a lovely pine grove with totem poles and everything that went with it then the powers that be decided to take all the grove down and left the poles up looks awful now so i have an idea of how you feel jd what a loss regards dave
BOD
Bushcrafter (boy, I've got a lot to say!)
Saddened.
Do what Toddy says. There must be consequences to the decision-makers. They must be held accountable.
Do what Toddy says. There must be consequences to the decision-makers. They must be held accountable.
That's a total disgrace. That must have been a shocking thing to find.
Jon, I realise the damage is done, but is there any kind of complaint procedure that can be taken up in the hope that this kind of thing can be prevented in future?
Jon, I realise the damage is done, but is there any kind of complaint procedure that can be taken up in the hope that this kind of thing can be prevented in future?
absolutley non, your dealing with a government backed quango, they have to right every time and will easily produce the paperwork to prove it, i am certain that somone has done there own ecollige survey and would be able to produce it in a court of law, it will of course state that there was no snakes in the area, its the same with the rspca, they were on telly with a film crew last year, i one programe i saw them break the laws 7 times and all done with a stupid ploicemen stood next to them also breaking the laws cause he thinks the rspca are proffessions and know what they they are doing, when i actual fact the rules are made up as they go along to suit them.
i totaly support your attempt to bring someone to book for this but you do realise that your trying to bring the walls of Jerico down, with a tea spoon
Jonathan have you been working on the site with the National Trust? and did they have access to your records for the site as to the importance of that particular area? As I have been working on a number of Uni( Ecology and Conservation management) assignments on a National Trust property and they always have been interested in any results and have asked for copies of my results.
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Sad day indeed. Reminds me of Joni Mitchell Big Yellow Taxi. This sort of thing is all too common...
JD, without compromising yourself in terms of giving anything away; does your documentary evidence carry any weight?
Who do you work for, or are you self-employed? What use of your data has been made? If you have irrefutable proof that the NT have destroyed the habitat of a protected species (I believe that is the case with adders?) then maybe there is a case for not following due processes?
My second point would be to write a clear, concise article and then make a noise about this to the press. The one thing that large outfits don't like is bad PR. There was a sort of similar case near me a few years ago when the various local agencies were going to completely remove all the gorse from a local golf course in order to "recreate heathland". At least in that case there was prior notice and the public made such an almighty stink that the plan was scrapped.
As you say, in your case it is stable door time but it is well worth banging the door so damn hard that people listen.
Your blackbird analogy really made me feel for you; you must be angry as hell and upset in equal measure I would think.
Who do you work for, or are you self-employed? What use of your data has been made? If you have irrefutable proof that the NT have destroyed the habitat of a protected species (I believe that is the case with adders?) then maybe there is a case for not following due processes?
My second point would be to write a clear, concise article and then make a noise about this to the press. The one thing that large outfits don't like is bad PR. There was a sort of similar case near me a few years ago when the various local agencies were going to completely remove all the gorse from a local golf course in order to "recreate heathland". At least in that case there was prior notice and the public made such an almighty stink that the plan was scrapped.
As you say, in your case it is stable door time but it is well worth banging the door so damn hard that people listen.
Your blackbird analogy really made me feel for you; you must be angry as hell and upset in equal measure I would think.
Interesting thread.
There's an area of open country near me in mid-Wales called the Begwns. It too is owned by the NT and they (or someone) has been clearing gorse patches on there recently - and still are. Almost each time I venture there with the dogs there's a new patch been cleared somewhere. Not caught them at it yet! I will add that they're not clearing all the gorse (yet) but just patches or strips; other nearby gorse is being left.
I don't know the conservation aspects of what they're doing but the gorse is a home to some small birds at the very least. The ground itself is mostly grossly overgrazed, and parts well-poached, by the commoners and their stock (and damage from the ubiquitous dirt-bikers). I thought at first it might be one of the commoners removing the gorse increasing the potential ground for grazing. However Lapwings do attempt to nest there on the common and I've seen largish groups of Golden Plovers. There are also wax cap fungi in parts. And Red Kites and Buzzards.
Seems like it might be NT policy to clear gorse from their estates? Maybe policy handed down from some bod in a new job who doesn't like gorse?
There's an area of open country near me in mid-Wales called the Begwns. It too is owned by the NT and they (or someone) has been clearing gorse patches on there recently - and still are. Almost each time I venture there with the dogs there's a new patch been cleared somewhere. Not caught them at it yet! I will add that they're not clearing all the gorse (yet) but just patches or strips; other nearby gorse is being left.
I don't know the conservation aspects of what they're doing but the gorse is a home to some small birds at the very least. The ground itself is mostly grossly overgrazed, and parts well-poached, by the commoners and their stock (and damage from the ubiquitous dirt-bikers). I thought at first it might be one of the commoners removing the gorse increasing the potential ground for grazing. However Lapwings do attempt to nest there on the common and I've seen largish groups of Golden Plovers. There are also wax cap fungi in parts. And Red Kites and Buzzards.
Seems like it might be NT policy to clear gorse from their estates? Maybe policy handed down from some bod in a new job who doesn't like gorse?
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I really feel for you Jonathan, appalling as far as I am concerned, but unfortunately it no longer surprises me.
We live in a National Park and last year the owner of the land (read 'money grabbing property developer') applied for some planning in the area, one right next door to us. We and other locals all notified the council planners and the Park officials regarding the bird and mammal life in the area but sadly to no avail.
The Park sent a qualified officer to inspect the land and they came back with a report stating that 'there is no mammal habitat in the area'. I couldn't believe it, NO MAMMAL HABITAT, oh well, all the raptors that hunt round here must have been mistaken!
I did call the Park office and pointed out that statistically at some point in their existence all dwellings at some point or another will have mice so therefore will be mammal habitat, so why is an area of moorland with sedge, heather etc; where raptors hunt (for a very good reason) not mammal habitat? Did I get a straight and satisfactory answer? No, in fact what I did surmise was that the officer probably didn't get out of their car and merely did a drive by! It does seem that many of us who spend time 'on the ground' observing and enjoying our rich and diverse biodiversity are far more aware than some of those who have the right qualifications!
I do hope that if you do follow this up Jonathan, the best that can be hoped for is that it doesn't happen again.
We live in a National Park and last year the owner of the land (read 'money grabbing property developer') applied for some planning in the area, one right next door to us. We and other locals all notified the council planners and the Park officials regarding the bird and mammal life in the area but sadly to no avail.
The Park sent a qualified officer to inspect the land and they came back with a report stating that 'there is no mammal habitat in the area'. I couldn't believe it, NO MAMMAL HABITAT, oh well, all the raptors that hunt round here must have been mistaken!
I did call the Park office and pointed out that statistically at some point in their existence all dwellings at some point or another will have mice so therefore will be mammal habitat, so why is an area of moorland with sedge, heather etc; where raptors hunt (for a very good reason) not mammal habitat? Did I get a straight and satisfactory answer? No, in fact what I did surmise was that the officer probably didn't get out of their car and merely did a drive by! It does seem that many of us who spend time 'on the ground' observing and enjoying our rich and diverse biodiversity are far more aware than some of those who have the right qualifications!
I do hope that if you do follow this up Jonathan, the best that can be hoped for is that it doesn't happen again.
P
Passer
Guest
Another example of Conservation gone wrong.
United Utilities where working on the River Irwell in our area 2 years ago, to do with flood defences.
They had to clear a small area of scrub with some mature trees. My son contacted them to ask if they could delay clearing the site until the birds had finished breeding. A week later the site was cleared, right in the middle of the breeding season.
When contacted, they assured my son they had surveyed the site and found no breeding birds.
They must have used someone with earplugs and dark glasses.
I hope you get some satisfaction with your complaint.
Good luck.
United Utilities where working on the River Irwell in our area 2 years ago, to do with flood defences.
They had to clear a small area of scrub with some mature trees. My son contacted them to ask if they could delay clearing the site until the birds had finished breeding. A week later the site was cleared, right in the middle of the breeding season.
When contacted, they assured my son they had surveyed the site and found no breeding birds.
They must have used someone with earplugs and dark glasses.
I hope you get some satisfaction with your complaint.
Good luck.
JD - Without commenting on the situation near you, I'm sure there has been a lot of good and bad done by all those institutions. What I am interested in is your research / monitoring and those of other specialist organisations like your local herpetologist group. I'm guessing there are similar groups all over the country doing their own surveys on their patches. Do you and your colleagues collate it nationally or are you all separate in this? What I am really asking is if there are 25 years or potentially more of records that landowner bodies such as NT and RSPB can go to? Do you carry out your surveys on land with the owner's permission and knowledge? This does not make a difference to your research but if they know it is going on there then there might just be one of those nameless bods with pieces of paper out there who asks for your results.
From the details you have provided it seems an absolute disaster in that area but, without any blame being inferred or meant, have you passed on any of your records to the local NT people or someone relevant in the regional or national HQ? It is easier for bad decisions to be made if there are no records of relevance (like your surveys) around the decision makers or the guy on the ground. Are there any national records for reptile surveys for organizations to go to??
From the details you have provided it seems an absolute disaster in that area but, without any blame being inferred or meant, have you passed on any of your records to the local NT people or someone relevant in the regional or national HQ? It is easier for bad decisions to be made if there are no records of relevance (like your surveys) around the decision makers or the guy on the ground. Are there any national records for reptile surveys for organizations to go to??
Apparently, yet another example of the National Trust acting without common sense, and seemingly, to the detriment of the environment. I have had the misfortune to work professionally alongside the Trust for a number of years. Unfortunately it does appear that there is a systemic failure for the management echelons within the NT to retain a sufficient degree of control over their local representation. I witnessed countless occasions when local NT management acted in ways which were totally against the overall aims of the Trust- to both the detriment of public enjoyment of their land and also to the detriment of the land itself. An example- an underpass beneath a road which they fought tooth and nail for in Public Inquiry to provide a route between two areas of their property. Their existed a surface pedestrian crossing which was adequate for the low numbers of walkers wishing to go between the two areas of woodland. But critically, having an underpass meant that the local NT wardens could walk their cattle through the underpass and it would save them time each day. Result- a huge underpass, the loss of hundreds of trees either side of the road, and the introduction of lighting and tarmac into what was previously a nice bit of woodland.
It is a sad fact that many NT wardens treat the land as their own personal estates.
It is a sad fact that many NT wardens treat the land as their own personal estates.
Good Luck Jonathon - what they've done is disgusting.
I wonder what the head of the National Trust would say if we went to his garden and raised it to the ground..... THAT would make the papers.
I wonder what the head of the National Trust would say if we went to his garden and raised it to the ground..... THAT would make the papers.
The problem with any conservation work it is getting the balance right. How do you manage for one thing but not to the detriment of another? In this instance from the evidence provided it does appear to have been done in thoughtless way if information regarding the areas importance as a Hibernaculum was ignored. Has this been done over the whole site or just part of it? Have areas of gorse been left? Cutting and the removal of gorse is a recognised management option on heathland.
From the photographs this appears to be an area of heathland which is in the process of succession and therefore potentially leading to the loss of the heathland.
It has been estimated that 60% of heathland has been lost in the last hundred years through agricultural improvement and succession through the cessation of grazing leading to the development of coarse grasses and scrub and trees.
Virtually all the habitats in Britain are semi natural (as in being modified by man’s actions) heathland is no different. It is a habitat produced by heavy grazing by sheep, cattle, ponies and Rabbits. It is the lack of management of this type of habitat that is a bigger problem. This leads to gorse and scrub taking over causing the loss of a whole range of national and internationally important flora and fauna of which one.
I know people say that it was woodland any way. The wild wood of the pre Mesolithic period is long gone and this includes the soil structure and seed bank that was there at that time. The same has happened with hay meadows an even rarer habitat than heathland. Man made these habitats we are now left with the problem of maintaining them or in some cases trying to reinstate them or lose them for ever.
From the photographs this appears to be an area of heathland which is in the process of succession and therefore potentially leading to the loss of the heathland.
It has been estimated that 60% of heathland has been lost in the last hundred years through agricultural improvement and succession through the cessation of grazing leading to the development of coarse grasses and scrub and trees.
Virtually all the habitats in Britain are semi natural (as in being modified by man’s actions) heathland is no different. It is a habitat produced by heavy grazing by sheep, cattle, ponies and Rabbits. It is the lack of management of this type of habitat that is a bigger problem. This leads to gorse and scrub taking over causing the loss of a whole range of national and internationally important flora and fauna of which one.
I know people say that it was woodland any way. The wild wood of the pre Mesolithic period is long gone and this includes the soil structure and seed bank that was there at that time. The same has happened with hay meadows an even rarer habitat than heathland. Man made these habitats we are now left with the problem of maintaining them or in some cases trying to reinstate them or lose them for ever.
I wonder if it's some kind of countrywide NT policy at the moment? I only say because down here in Castleward near Strangford they've been uprooting and burning Gorse like nobody's business, and they've also felled several acres of young, scrub deciduous woodland to boot. It didn't look particularly pretty to begin with, but now it's just a wasteland of stumps and burn-scars. Could there be a daft cosmetic motive to some of this?
