Bushcraft for challenging pupils...

[locum76]

We see it as a good thing to help chavs, but children see things differently, they see troublemakers being rewarded

i think the word 'chav' is an incendiary term and only helps to further demonise and exclude.

I think that some of the kids on this course may have behavioural problems because they dont fit, rather than just "being bad". As most of us(BCUK members) don't fit in the "normal" box maybe that is why we "do" bushcraft? I know if I was stuck in an office or factory 8 to 10 hours a day I would be (and have been!) seen as as a problem!
I take my kids out at weekends and we do stuff, they get opportunities to do things that most of their mates wouldn't, and I think this helps them to be better people all round, some kids either don't have parents at all or their parents can't or wont have any time for them and they end up trying to impress their mates instead. Dont they need better role models and a different outlook on life?

i couldn't agree more. if a teenager is well adjusted and well behaved it is possibly as a result of a stable homelife where he/she has the time and opportunity to do things they enjoy.

if a teenager is problematic at school and on the street IMO its often as a result of social difficulties at home. i.e an abusive parent, congenital mental health issues, homelessness, abject poverty etc.

sometimes for the disadvantaged just a little encouragement from a positive role models can help the 'chav' to behave in a more positive manner. wether the encouragement comes in the form of a bushcraft course, art, music, ballet, sport or whatever.

if the government is going to fund bushcraft courses - lets see them start with those who need it the most.

 

[bogflogger]

............

 

[fred gordon]

I have worked in the field of Outdoor Education for 20 years.

You are all missing the point of these courses, they are NOT about teaching Bushcraft, Canoeing, Climbing or any other Activity.

They are about Behavioural Modification and Personal Development.

As far as running these courses for all.......Fine!

This was supposedly going to be introduced as part of the National Curriculum in 1997.......I'm Still Waiting!

In the meantime, the only people who can afford to pay for Courses are Youth Justice Teams and Social Service Departments.

It is a fact of life that these Courses are expensive to run and until some fundamental changes are made to the Education System this is not going to change.

Bogflogger,
I suspect that you might be the one missing the point, I'm afraid to say. What we are saying to these kids is 'Hey if you miss bahave you can go on a great course, have lots of fun, then go back to school and start all over again' I too have worked in outdoor education for a number of years and this sort of preferential treatment is devisive. The well behaved kids get very little, all they see is bad behaviour being rewarded. The number of kids whos behaviour is 'modified' to any great extent is minimal, they are under too much peer pressure and there are certainly much better ways of spending streched education budgets than rewarding the bad students.

 

[locum76]

Bogflogger,
I suspect that you might be the one missing the point, I'm afraid to say. What we are saying to these kids is 'Hey if you miss bahave you can go on a great course, have lots of fun, then go back to school and start all over again' I too have worked in outdoor education for a number of years and this sort of preferential treatment is devisive.

it sounds like you may be suffering from a little compassion fatigue...

in my experience it does work it just takes a lot of time and effort. mind you i've only been doing outdoor/ social care work for a couple of yours, and with a slightly different client group. (16-30 y/o at risk of homelessness).

 

[bogflogger]

You are Utterly, Totally and Completely WRONG.

If you have worked in Outdoor Education, them you MUST know, that the vast majority of Clients on Courses are there because:

1. They have been abused throughout their whole existance and/or have never had any positive role models in their lives at all.

2. They have been sent there as the "Last Chance" before serving a Prison term.

The Confidential report on their behavioral modification will have an impact on wether they go to Prison or not, plus the attendance on the Course will have shown them alternative ways of behaving.

As to Courses having a "Minimal Impact" perhaps you would like to discuss that with the four Teenage ex-street prostitutes I Caseworked, that are now at College/University training as Social Workers.

Or the several street muggers that gave it up, after being confronted with their actions on a Course, and then realised what a terrible price was paid by their victims.

How do you measure the sucess rate of something that actually stops crimes from taking place?

 

[locum76]

You are Utterly, Totally and Completely WRONG.

If you have worked in Outdoor Education, them you MUST know, that the vast majority of Clients on Courses are there because:

1. They have been abused throughout their whole existance and/or have never had any positive role models in their lives at all.

2. They have been sent there as the "Last Chance" before serving a Prison term.

The Confidential report on their behavioral modification will have an impact on wether they go to Prison or not, plus the attendance on the Course will have shown them alternative ways of behaving.

As to Courses having a "Minimal Impact" perhaps you would like to discuss that with the four Teenage ex-street prostitutes I Caseworked, that are now at College/University training as Social Workers.

Or the several street muggers that gave it up, after being confronted with their actions on a Course, and then realised what a terrible price was paid by their victims.

How do you measure the sucess rate of something that actually stops crimes from taking place?

absolutely mate. sounds like you're in at the very deep end too.:You_Rock_

 

[ArkAngel]

it sounds like you may be suffering from a little compassion fatigue... QUOTE]

With the deepest respect to the people here who work with these people and i really do not mean to offend anyone this is just my point of view.

I am afraid i am in the "compassion fatigue" camp, i prefer "world weary" myself.
Why should the 'problem' kids get all the breaks?
These courses are the sort of thing that lots of kids would like to do but will never get the opportunity.
While i do acknowledge and appreciate that not everyone got the sort of breaks in life that i did while growing up (stable, happy, financially secure home life) why on earth should bad behaviour be rewarded? I was brought up to believe that if you break the law or step over the boundries of 'civilised' society, you were punished for it, not rewarded and sent off for some enjoyable one to one tuition in the subject of your choice.
The few times i did step over the line as a kid (and who doesn't to some degree) i was punished for it. It made me stop and think about what i did and instilled in me a 'barrier' if you like that my behaviour will not be pushed over as i know this is deemed 'unaceptable' in polite society.

While i do have some sympathy for the people who didn't get the breaks i did i have to say that i object to the fact that they are handed things on a plate that i had to work damned hard for or cannot currently afford to do seemingly without consequence.

 

[bogflogger]

Been there.....Got burned out..... taking a couple of years away from it.

I just find it intensely irrititating when people start spouting off about "Holidays for Criminals" without ANY understanding of what is actually taking place.

All they see are the Canoes/Rucksacks/Climbing gear and they think thats what it's all about.

Perhaps if they channelled all their "hot air" into something real, like getting involved with a Youth Justice Project, they would see for themselves WHY this sort of work is Essential.

 

[locum76]

While i do acknowledge and appreciate that not everyone got the sort of breaks in life that i did while growing up (stable, happy, financially secure home life) why on earth should bad behaviour be rewarded?

its not about rewarding bad behaviour, these kids can already be in the penal system, its about creating an alternative to crime and prison (which can lead to further problems).

The few times i did step over the line as a kid (and who doesn't to some degree) i was punished for it. It made me stop and think about what i did and instilled in me a 'barrier' if you like that my behaviour will not be pushed over as i know this is deemed 'unaceptable' in polite society.

its easier to react to punishment in that way when you have a positive role model. some kids have no concept of polite society or what is accepted by it. the punishers become the enemy and someone to kick harder against.

While i do have some sympathy for the people who didn't get the breaks i did i have to say that i object to the fact that they are handed things on a plate that i had to work damned hard for or cannot currently afford to do seemingly without consequence.

if somebody has had a really bad life, why shouldn't they be allowed to enjoy themselves once in a while?

 

[ArkAngel]

Good grief a few people posted while i was writing my last post.!!!

If that is your experience with these types of people then i applaud you whole heartedly, you really must do excellent work and it's something i could never do, but i am glad people like yourselves or the people who run these courses can.

My experience is a little different...

I used to work in a CCTV control room. Amongst other things on a daily basis we intercepted and had arrested a large number of people who shoplifted or mugged other people. These people were duly arrested and carted of to be back on the streets within a day or two. Most when they went to court were given warnings or fines which they couldn't pay so they stole/mugged more to fund an increasing alcohol/drug problem and to pay the courts back.
Occasionly they were kept out of prison by agreeing to do a drug/alcohol rehab course which of course they were happy to do as it kept them out of prison. When released from this they fell straight back into their old ways with relish and the whole sorry saga started all over again.
I haven't worked in the control centre for nearly 2 years, but in the crime digest in the local paper every week it's the same people, doing the same things with the same results. There is never any news such as "reformed drug taker opens drop in centre" or the like.
I am glad that progress is being made in some places and this can only benifit us all but i'm afraid that in my experience it is not the case and we the taxpaying public pay for these peoples flats, their drug habits and their delinquent way of life.

Sorry to sound uncaring but in our area that is the way things are. Work is in progress to do something about it an i hope that things really do take off. Listening to some social workers/PCSO's and police officers it makes a grim tale.

 

[locum76]

admittedly, there are some that just cant be helped.

 

[bogflogger]

The reason you do not hear about the vast amount of excellent work taking place all over the UK........ often run on a shoestring budget and/or by volunteers is simple..........."Good News is NO News."

 

[Tengu]

What about me? I have socialisation difficulties

There is very little help for me

If I was under 18, there is `lots` of help, and I expect it could involve a bushcraft course.

Arkangel, i know how you feel, Ive seen it happen too much myself.

 

[bogflogger]

Tengu......PM on the way......give me 5 mins.

 

[Montivagus]

I know from experience that these programs can and do help youths with social issues etc

But I'm always unhappy that kids have to misbehave or have other difficulties to get on to these programs, what about the well adjusted, well behaved kids that loose out because they do nothing wrong?

Hummm

David

Yep!

 

[bogflogger]

1.Lobby your Member of Parliament for an Effective Education and Youth Justice System.

2. Get involved yourselves, instead of just spouting hot air on a Forum and believing it's all "Someone elses problem."

 

[ArkAngel]

The reason you do not hear about the vast amount of excellent work taking place all over the UK........ often run on a shoestring budget and/or by volunteers is simple..........."Good News is NO News."

Yes very true.

I think the problem is a large and difficult one to sort out.

In a town near me in response to the argument "Theres nothing to do...nowhere to go" they opened a number of youth clubs and drop in centres to address these problems, organise activites etc. Most now have a constant police presence due to the trouble at these places. The problem is that it is not "cool" (showing my age!) to be at these places or take part in organised activities. Any attempt at kindness by the organisers is thrown straight back at them with contempt.

There are larger social forces at work and it will take years of dedicated hard work by people better than me to sort it out.

Bogflogger / locum76 i salute you and the hundreds like you :You_Rock_

 

[bogflogger]

ArkAngel, why not offer to do a couple of hours a week as a Volunteer?

I know it sounds terrifying, and it can be very hard work........BUT when you finally do "get through" to a Young Person, it will put a grin on your face for a whole week.

Theres all kinds of Youth Projects in desperate need of Volunteers, everything from Accountants to people who can photocopy stuff for an hour or two.......so you do not even have to work up at the sharp end if you don't want to.

 

[ArkAngel]

I'm afraid i consider myself a little too unbalanced to help in that way.

I have worked with kids before (cubs, scouts, boys brigade, ATC) and have found it rewarding to help kids learn and better themselves. These were difficult in their own way but at least were a bit more structured.

I'm afraid as i said earlier i consider myself "world weary" and as i get older (hark at me 33 going on 60 ) i find myself heading towards "grumpy old man" syndrome.
It would bother me too much that i would get "burnt out" like yourself far too quickly and my temper is far too short to deal with real problem kids.

I still assist and occasionly teach the childrens classes at my martial arts club and enjoy that, but again being "weary" these classes have become much more difficult to teach over the last 10 years. Kids have no paitence, no concentration, are badly behaved, have absolutly no respect for people or property are molly coddled so they won't try anything new and generally have the attitude "it's hard work so i don't want to do it". It's not entirely theirs or their parents fault these days, it's just a change in the attitude of people in general.

These days i prefer to imerse myself in more solitary pursuits, in fact anything to get me away from other people

 

[bogflogger]

LOL I hear that!

I know exactly how you feel myself.