Farmer accidently shoots burglars....

[British Red]

Quite possibly. For the avoidance of doubt, if the bloke did discharge his weapon into the night, he was bloody stupid and deserved to have his certificate revoked.

Out of interest why do you think the CPS were "keen to prosecute"? I have seen nothing on that in any of the papers. Indeed in your post above #31 you say you were mistaken in thinking the landowner was charged. Then you say

CPS were clearly keen to prosecute and they do not bring an attempted murder charge lightly.

I would hope the CPS aren't "keen" to do anything. I would hope they objectively examine the evidence and proceed if a conviction is likely.

This case in general has a lot of unanswered questions and I suspect we may never know the whole story. I find it insightful though that people are more interested in the handicapped elderly landowner than the cache of drugs and firearms with a hole in the wall with two people there for no clear reason.

 

[British Red]

Lets move away from the specifics on this onto the "moral discussion" Robin.

Round here there have been a spate of arson attacks.

Whole barns of hay, workshops, outbuildings burned out. Police turn out but haven't the manpower to do much. Mopeds have been heard driving away after the event.

If a farmer catches the person in the act, should they tackle them? Or let them carrying on destroying property, pushing up insurance premiums for already borderline businesses (the lucky ones) or breaking them (the unlucky ones)?

If they tackle them, there is a very real chance of it turning nasty. If they don't their friends and neighbours get burned out.

What would you do?

 

[No Idea]

I know that Caveat Emptor doesnt quite apply....

..but, if you decide to break the law, you must accept that others might break it too.

 

[Toddy]

Response to British Red

Ah the old vigilante justice as the right of every man theory
Results in anarchy and paranoia.

Doesn't stop the arsonists/ burglars/ chancers, just gives them a challenge and lands those who take the law into their own hands in trouble too.

Clues, clues and more clues provide evidences that stop crime.

Do country folk not use those dazzling lights on pir monitors that the rest of the population fasten to their houses and outbuildings ? £15 each round here.

http://www.dark-sky-lighting.co.uk/index.asp?pageid=12361

Toddy

 

[robin wood]

Lets move away from the specifics on this onto the "moral discussion" Robin.

Round here there have been a spate of arson attacks.

Whole barns of hay, workshops, outbuildings burned out. Police turn out but haven't the manpower to do much. Mopeds have been heard driving away after the event.

If a farmer catches the person in the act, should they tackle them? Or let them carrying on destroying property, pushing up insurance premiums for already borderline businesses (the lucky ones) or breaking them (the unlucky ones)?

If they tackle them, there is a very real chance of it turning nasty. If they don't their friends and neighbours get burned out.

What would you do?

I think the law is pretty clear on what constitutes unreasonable force in such circumstances and shooting with a shotgun, making a snap decision as judge and jury I would suggest was unreasonable. I actually feel very grateful to have lived through one of the most peaceful periods in modern history with a legal system that undoubtedly has faults and may even air on the side of caution but I don't think I could design a better fairer system myself and would not want to live in a society where might is right. If I wanted to live somewhere where it was OK for a chap to protect his property with a gun and ask questions later there are plenty of places in the world I could do it. I am here by choice.

 

[British Red]

Response to Toddy - who on earth is talking about Vigilante Justice here?? In what way is tackling a law breaker on your land Vigilante Justice?

Many Hay barns aren't wired for power Toddy. Even if they were, and there is no-one there to see (they aren't all near dwellings). I have them, and cameras. Cost me a good few hundred to cover one small cottage and three outbuildings.

So what would you do if you saw some person in a crash helmet sparking up a hay rick?

Red

 

[British Red]

I think the law is pretty clear on what constitutes unreasonable force in such circumstances and shooting with a shotgun, making a snap decision as judge and jury I would suggest was unreasonable. I actually feel very grateful to have lived through one of the most peaceful periods in modern history with a legal system that undoubtedly has faults and may even air on the side of caution but I don't think I could design a better fairer system myself and would not want to live in a society where might is right. If I wanted to live somewhere where it was OK for a chap to protect his property with a gun and ask questions later there are plenty of places in the world I could do it. I am here by choice.

I didn't say anything about guns Robin, most farmers don't walk around with them. I asked do you believe a farmer should confront someone (whilst unarmed for clarity) or let them go? Lets all accept that gunning them down is wrong. So what should they do?

 

[No Idea]

My 70 year old mum lives in sheltered housing. In the last week, three of her neighbours have been burgled.

Two of those were while they were in doors.

The last one, they stole her deceased husbands medals and wedding ring as well as taking her jewellery.

Another, they arrived in the middle of the day with a van and emptied the house of all their furniture - as well as their valuables. That place was also done a month ago as well.

I spent several hours last night on the phone discussing with my mum what she should do if they come for her stuff.

She has been going around hiding her stuff, which for the most part isnt even worth taking...

I could only suggest she yells that she is fully insured and would they leave a list of what they were taking.

She wanted to know how much she should have in the place for them to take so they wont put her in hospital, as she is still recovering from a leg wound that took nearly 2 months to heal where an excited dog jumped up in the park, and doesnt need any more.

The last woman heard them smash her double glazed window. My mum wants to know if she should press her care line button when she hears them, or if they would see that as a reason to smash her up.

I was pretty much lost for words.

 

[British Red]

I find that insightful. A posed scenario where a landowner witnesses a crime and the question "should he confront the criminal" elicits the conclusion "Vigilante Justice" and "making a snap decision as judge and jury". Sad that - farmers aren't Vigilantes or "judge and juries". But nor should they have to just sit back and be burned out.

 

[No Idea]

My mum isnt on the farm anymore, this all happened in the village, where things are much safer. She is about 3 miles from the police headquarters.

 

[British Red]

Sorry No Idea, that wasn't addressed to you we over posted. I am saddened though by the attitude that people should walk away from crime and just be passive victims. No-one should be a "judge, jury and executioner", or a Vigilante. But the jumped to conclusion that any landowner (or homeowner) who tries to prevent their livelihood or possesions being destroyed or stolen speaks volumes to me.

 

[robin wood]

I didn't say anything about guns Robin, most farmers don't walk around with them. I asked do you believe a farmer should confront someone (whilst unarmed for clarity) or let them go? Lets all accept that gunning them down is wrong. So what should they do?

It's all a bit hypothetical but I'll play along.
In your original scenario I have seen them, they have not seen me. I slink away quickly and quietly and phone police, get help, get a camera, get the car so I can follow if they drive off, block their car in to prevent escape etc. If they have seen me too then we are in a very different situation and I like most folk would play it by ear, depending. If he was 6'6" glaring at me in menacing fashion and swinging a big stick I would make a good mental note of as many details as possible for the police and smile nicely. If it was kids and they started to leave I might step in try to restrain them using minimal possible force. What would you do?

 

[No Idea]

Hi British....

No offence taken.

However, I seriously have No Idea what to suggest to my mum.

Whats going on down there is classed as so minor its not even in the local rag.

With respect, I would like to say that the police dont acutally pose a deterrent, and at present, they arnt actually catching criminals either.

This is leaving people, especially those in rural areas and definitely those on farms with no protection beyond that which they weild themselves.

Its already anarchy.

 

[robin wood]

My mum isnt on the farm anymore, this all happened in the village, where things are much safer. She is about 3 miles from the police headquarters.

Very sorry to hear of your mums situation, very sad, there will always be some very unsavory selfish unthinking people in society and as is clearly the case for your mum the fear of it happening is very damaging in itself.

 

[No Idea]

lol.

I once caught two youths of about 20 years old smashing into cars in another village I lived in. I watched them smash 11 cars.

I sat on one for nearly an hour while waiting for the police.

Apparently, they forgot to tell them that I was holding them and they also sent the car from a station 12 miles away, driven by an officer who had never been to the village and got lost...

When they arrived an hour and a half after I had called, they had overpowered me and left

 

[robin wood]

I am saddened though by the attitude that people should walk away from crime and just be passive victims. No-one should be a "judge, jury and executioner", or a Vigilante. But the jumped to conclusion that any landowner (or homeowner) who tries to prevent their livelihood or possesions being destroyed or stolen speaks volumes to me.

I am simply saying we should not use unreasonable force which is the legal position. What are you suggesting?

 

[No Idea]

No worries Robin.

Please understand that the rural law enforcement in many areas is dire and has been for well over a decade.

THis stuff is so routine that it doesnt ever even get reported.

I could give you reams of examples that I have actually witnessed.

This is one of the reasons I now live in the town with my kids.

Its a hell of a lot safer.

 

[No Idea]

Reasonable force...

If you live on a farm, its your home, its your living, its your food, its everything.

What would you be prepared to do, knowing the police wouldnt help?

 

[No Idea]

If I caught those ones who are terrifying my mum in her house, Im pretty sure I would be interested in convincing them not to return. Im honestly not sure what I would class as unreasonable force.

 

[No Idea]

Hmm...

I try not to get caught up in things like this.

Please accept my apologies.