Eric_Methven said:
Martyn. In what way is BES a carbon copy of this site? Are you suggesting we plagerised BCUK? The forum is a bog standard layout and the web pages were written by me a long long time before BCUK was even thought of.
I originally stated that membership of the website was a completely separate issue from woodland purchase simply because one member thought paying his ten quid a year would get him a share in the woodland ownership. I was just correcting him that was not the case.
You are perfectly correct that it is not fair to poach members from this site over to a site that has similarities in many ways. Had this started from scratch and completely independantly, I wouldn't have had the audacity. But the whole concept started HERE with members expressing an interest in buying their own woodland and where nobody else was willing to actually get of their backsides and do something, we did.
Please remeber that this is being set up without funding and without capital. There was no other way to fund it except to set up a website and forum of our own to bring funds in so we could administer the aquisition of woodland. We need to be looking at public liability, equipment, H&S, first aid and the like and the money has to come from somewhere. That's why we set the forum up.
I added the web pages so people joining our society and contributing funding to a common end goal would have something other than just a forum to look at.
The courses part was simply what I already had on offer back in the nineteen eighties and ninetys and I left them there because we might have to go down that road to finance the society and it's aims sometime in the future. There will certainly be no courses run for at least six months. Anyway, I do realise that there are rules forbiding the advertising of bushcraft schools, and had this not all started here, I wouldn't have included a link that led to it but I was simply answering people's posts about how the search for woodlan had gone.
It's only been a couple of weeks since this whole thing started and obviously links were posted before I put the web pages and course info up. So, I apollogise for infringing the rules. I won't mention BES or advertise it on here again and to reiterate, this is NOT direct competition. We are trying to provide a service to bushcrafters and are NOT making money from it. On the contrary, so far it has cost me a lot of my own money which I know I won't see again.
Eric
Eric, thanks for your considered and reasoned response, I appreciate it.
I do honestly see where you are comming from, I can understand the evolotion process and where it has taken you. Although I dont know you, I'm inclined to believe your motives are genuine and others here who do know you, respect you and I have no reason to doubt their judgement.
However, I came to this thread fairly recently. Althougth I do understand that evolution of the concept has bought you to this point, I am assessing what I see in front of me at this time, which is something different to the original concept. It
is a replication of the BcUK format and you are promoting it here. Regardless of how it started, that is the situation we are faced with today. It's clearly causing concern, not just amongst moderators, but generally.
A few years ago, I started BritishBlades, I had a small bushcraft section. After about six months and a lot of hard work, the membership had grown to around 500. At that time I became aware of BcUK, a brand new site with a small edged tools section. I liked the people, I liked the owner and saw there was some crossover of interests. Without prompting, I put a link up from BritishBlades, to BcUK. Tony did the same in return. We were both happy to do this as the two sites were clearly complimentary. The links have been in place ever since and Tony and I have become great friends. The sites are pretty evenly matched in size, if anything BcUK is a little busier than BB these days. But both Tony and I are still quite happy to direct folks to each others sites, because we know that it's essentially good for our members and for our own sites. No agreements were made, nothing written down. But key to this working relationship is trust. If Tony had changed the format of his forums to replicate those I had on BB, that trust would've been undermined and I would've taken the link down immediately. The relationship between BritishBlades and BcUK is a great example of two sites, that re genuinely complimentary, working together to promote each other.
What you have here seems a great idea, worthy of getting behind. But it is dependant on faith and trust - there is a lot of money involved too. I can understand that you've looked at the project and worked out the best format to promote it, in the best way you can. But I think you've taken some things for granted. There is of course, a place for as many bushcraft websites on the internet, as there are people inclined to make them. But no website owner is going to channel his traffic into a website that has essentially the same format. That would be lunacy.
Your project seems dependant on trust and also dependant on recruiting a large number of people from the ranks of BcUK. Myself and others are still puzzled over why you've elected to present BES as a bushcraft forum instead of a dedicated woodland buy forum. If it is as you say, to cover all your bases, I cant help but feel that buy trying to do this, you may have shot the project in the foot, by taking for granted the very thing you are dependant on - the good will of BcUK.
It's up to you which way you take it. Of course there is room for another bushcraft site, but you cannot seriously expect BcUK to promote and funnel traffic into it, if the format is pretty much a clone of here. If you keep it in that format, I think you are going to be pretty much on your own. At the very least, you have made the job of convincing Tony and others to back it, a hell of a lot harder for yourself.
I do believe your motives are genuine, or at least I have no reason to doubt they are. I also think the project is great and applaud your drive to get something of the ground. But given the level of trust needed to develop cross-website promotions like this, I dont understand why you elected to start a bushcraft forum in favour of a woodland buy website? Doing such would obviously raise questions over motive and clearly jeopardise the backing of BcUK.
I've raised my concerns and thankyou for taking the time to answer them. I'm not sure quite how I feel about it. Part of me understands and sympathises with the situation you are in, but I'm puzzled by some of the choices you have made. I'm sure if this project is presented in the right way, Tony and others would get behind it 100%, If you dont need or care about Tony's backing, then maybe the format you have taken is the right one. I honestly dont know. I do know if I was Tony, I wouldn't allow the promotion of BES in it's current incarnation and would feel compelled to treat it in exactly the same was as any other school or forum looking to promote itself on these pages.
The final decision on that is Tony's though.
Regards,
Martyn.