Very odd way of starting a fire !

[twisted firestarter]

This is a clip on you tube which is about 3.5 minutes long. It is from a programme which I first saw in the 80's in which an Indonesian man seems to be able to start a fire using his 'chi' energy. I know what I believe but I am interested to hear what you guys think? Stick with it, the relevent bit is near the end. :yikes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZBfEZLbNhI

 

[Matt Weir]

WOW Well, what can you say to that? There are things people are capable of that are long forgotten I suppose.

I wonder if RM is aware of the chi style of firelighting? I think that John Chang is one of the few people that could turn him green with envy for that skill lol.

Believeable? I dunno, it looked above board (if you accept that a bloke can create fireballs using chi energy like some Mortal Combat game character ) but impressive skills none the less.

Matt.

 

[gregorach]

I once saw a chap cut a woman in half with a saw and then put her back together again... Amazing what people can do, eh?

 

[Pipistrelle]

I have seen some fantastic things and been flung across a room by a man who barely or maybe didn't touch me (i didn't feel it and the distance was really to big) I did show physical signs of connection , apparently that was chi energy. All a bit weird..... but fire? I am a little sceptical, but really want to believe it.

 

[tomtom]

Is this the program presented by the guy with the eye patch. If it is (i cant watch the video as my laptop dies on me) then at the end of the program the guy who can preform (and other amazing stunts) get s visit from the spirit of his old master in the middle of the night who tells him to stop being such a show off and get back to healing people, at which point the guys says he doesnt want to do the program anymore and dissapears off in to obscurity

 

[gregorach]

OK, I've watched the vid now, and I have to say it's the least convincing conjouring trick I've ever seen. I mean, if you're going to video that sort of thing, cutting between shots during the trick really doesn't look good. You have no idea how long those cuts took or what was done during them.

All you'd need to do would be to put an old-fashioned promethian match (sulphuric acid and potassium cholrate) inside the newspaper, break the capsule, then start the camera rolling as the magician waves his hand about whilst waiting for the reaction to generate heat.

 

[Brendan]

Anything is possible, don't limit yourself by believing any different.
The belief is all that is different between him and us.
He meditates everyday to program himself with that particular belief system.
He then manifests that belief in the world.
There is great evidence to say we live in a holographic illusion, that is
what this reality is made from, waves of energy fields decoded by our brains, we do not see with our eyes, we see with are brains which decode the wave information.
Anyone who has studied quantum theory has had an insight into this.

We are mind controlled in the west to believe in a set of rules from the moment we become able to communicate via parents,media etc.This just serves to limit our belief systems and renders us incapable to conceive any different.

As Albert Einstein once said.
"The only thing that interferes with my learning is my education."

he also said

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."

Now he was a scientist, maybe one of the greatest, not a mystic or spiritualist.

Yeah there are fakes out there who take the shortcut via deception but there are also people who really do these feats.

Just my 2p worth after studying this subject for 20+ years.

 

[gregorach]

I'm all for having an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out. As a wise man once said: "Ye cannae change the laws of physics, Jim!".

As for "stud[ying] quantum theory", do you actually mean studying real quantum theory, complete with maths, or reading Deepak Chopra books? 'Cause I studied some quantum theory at Uni, and it doesn't say anything like that as far as I recall.

As for not seeing with your brain rather than your eyes... try putting on a blindfold and see how you do.

If there really is a "chi energy", then it has to be measureable by the methods of science. Energy is measured in joules. How many joules of "chi energy" can this guy supposedly project? If you can't measure it, it isn't energy. Energy is a real, physical thing, not some mystical quantity. It conforms to known physical laws.

Isaac Netwon was also a great scientist, but he spent much of his life working on the alchemical transformation of lead into gold. His physics and maths were great, but the alchemy was nonsense.

 

[bent-stick]

Hi Brendan
I admire your faith. I couldn't make that leap and gave up all the 'internal' stuff for something more practical. I still do some meditation using siu lim tao because I think it helps my coordination.

I think the clincher for me spending a weekend on a qi gong retreat. I've never seen such a selection of oddballs. The last straw was the Korean qi gong practitioner knocking people over...through a video link. I was rejected as a volunteer because I had a "wrong attitude".

Funnily enough I do believe there is something in acupuncture...

 

[Jodie]

Can't watch it at work unfortunately but I'd be quicker to assume sleight of
hand than mystical shenanigans.

 

[Brendan]

I'm all for having an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out. As a wise man once said: "Ye cannae change the laws of physics, Jim!".

As for "stud[ying] quantum theory", do you actually mean studying real quantum theory, complete with maths, or reading Deepak Chopra books? 'Cause I studied some quantum theory at Uni, and it doesn't say anything like that as far as I recall.

As for not seeing with your brain rather than your eyes... try putting on a blindfold and see how you do.

If there really is a "chi energy", then it has to be measureable by the methods of science. Energy is measured in joules. How many joules of "chi energy" can this guy supposedly project? If you can't measure it, it isn't energy. Energy is a real, physical thing, not some mystical quantity. It conforms to known physical laws.

Isaac Netwon was also a great scientist, but he spent much of his life working on the alchemical transformation of lead into gold. His physics and maths were great, but the alchemy was nonsense.

Your study of quantum theory at university is part of my point, our education system leave out a lot of important information.
At the quantum level matter which is energy operates in a totally different way than at the level we are used to in our perceivable reality.
The brain decodes the information that comes through the eyes, hence it is not your eyes that see it is your brain and belief system it is tuned to that actually put in your mind what you think you see.
I know it is hard to change your belief system when you have reached a certain age, about 10 years old usually and I'm not writing this to force my views on anyone.
We are all different individuals and each of us has our own version of reality but on another level we are all connected.
This is the outline of my version, where anything is possible, no false limits exist and everyone on Earth has infinite potential, all equal, all connected.
Go sit in the woods for a month or so and this becomes a lot clearer.

Anyway got to go and walk the dog now!

 

[gregorach]

The way the video is edited, there is no sleight of hand required. There are two jump-cuts during the sequence.

 

[gregorach]

Your study of quantum theory at university is part of my point, our education system leave out a lot of important information.
At the quantum level matter which is energy operates in a totally different way than at the level we are used to in our perceivable reality.
The brain decodes the information that comes through the eyes, hence it is not your eyes that see it is your brain and belief system it is tuned to that actually put in your mind what you think you see.
I know it is hard to change your belief system when you have reached a certain age, about 10 years old usually and I'm not writing this to force my views on anyone.
We are all different individuals and each of us has our own version of reality but on another level we are all connected.
This is the outline of my version, where anything is possible, no false limits exist and everyone on Earth has infinite potential, all equal, all connected.
Go sit in the woods for a month or so and this becomes a lot clearer.

Anyway got to go and walk the dog now!

So if you can't study quantum at uni because "they leave out a lot of important information" (such as?), where do you study it? Do you just make stuff up and call it quantum theory?

Trust me, I've believed a lot of wierd stuff in my time. Over time, I have come to realise that it was all just wishful thinking. At the end of the day, we know the basic laws of physics work because they let us do practical, observable things - like building the computers we're using to communicate.

Sometimes I feel having these sorts of discussions over the internet is kinda like the Flat Earth Society having their own communications satellite... The fruits of science are all around you - and they work.

Anyway, I don't really know how we got onto this from a video of an amazingly lame conjouring trick... It's like starting a discussion about the nature of reality from watching The Paul Daniels Magic Show.

 

[deezee_uk]

I don't want to upset anyone, and to be honest its all a little deep for bushcraft, but.... being told my education renders me incapable of even conceiving anything different, is insulting to say the least. I certainly don't need to be told how my brain interprets the senses.
However you can't use quantum theory (Or anything our mind controlling western culture has brainwashed us with) to poo poo one idea, and support your own theory. It all sounds a bit similar to stories of Victorians using the Ether to justify any crazy idea they had about things they didn't understand.

 

[Brendan]

I too in no way mean to offend anyone and to each their own.
You are obviously happy in your understanding as I in mine.
I was merely trying to give an explanation to something other than "it is a magic trick". It maybe a trick on this occasion but then again it maybe not, can you be sure?
When you have seen feats similar to the one on the video in question in front of you and I don't mean by anyone in the "magic circle" then you start asking questions.

That's how I became interested in the subject and I have gone down many avenues trying to explain it.
All I can say is that the world is a very different place than what I first expected and I believe that if anyone had experienced the "bizarre" as I have, they too may have a different point of view.
It is common if not natural that when someones understanding of the world is threatened they retaliate, and this is a very complicated and deep subject and I agree this forum is not the place to discuss this in depth, but if a member cannot give his version of events as he sees it, but just goes with the beliefs of the majority then he looses his freedom of speech and inderviduality.
OK nough said :tapedshut

 

[Matt Weir]

IAs a wise man once said: "Ye cannae change the laws of physics, Jim!".

Aiye Dunc, and as an equally wise man also once said: "Hokey religions and ancient chi techniques are no match for a good firesteel at your side, kid."

Matt.

 

[gregorach]

[...]if a member cannot give his version of events as he sees it, but just goes with the beliefs of the majority then he looses his freedom of speech and inderviduality. [...]

Nobody's saying you're not entitled to your opinion, and to express it. But, as I always say, that cuts both ways. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from criticism or challenge.

For my part, you're entirely welcome to believe there are fairies at the bottom of your garden if you so wish. But if you state that belief in public, you have to expect people to question it.

I do not feel in any way threatened by your beliefs.

 

[Brendan]

OK I'll try and show you I am not completely nuts

National Geographic

Talbot

Holgraphic Universe Theory

These are not written by mystics but this is taking purely scientific approach and yes it is a theory only but it does tie in with the beliefs of certain Eastern cultures.

 

[Marts]

Just watched the video....Oh Please..... I don't suppose it was the lit cigarette in his hand that did it (And talking of lit cigarette I think quitting smoking would do more for his energy levels...)
Perhaps we can have an adjudication from Magikelly on this one

I'm all for having an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out.

Excellent turn of phrase

 

[gregorach]

OK I'll try and show you I am not completely nuts

National Geographic

String theory. Fine - that's real science, with rules and maths and all that. Currently speculative, and the article linked is somewhat hyperbolic, but it's still science. The term "holographic universe" as used here is an analogy, and highly speculative.

Talbot

Holgraphic Universe Theory

These are not written by mystics but this is taking purely scientific approach and yes it is a theory only but it does tie in with the beliefs of certain Eastern cultures.

Firstly, Micheal Talbot does not appear to be a scientist. He's an author, and an apparently mystical one at that. His "holographic universe" theory (using the word in the loosest possible sense) appears to be an entirely speculative hypothesis based on an extremely questionable understanding of certain theories of quantum gravity. It does not appear in the physics literature at all as far as I can see, except for one reference in a very dodgy-looking paper on vacuum energy and cold fusion. The term "holographic universe" has been used by real physicists, but I don't think it means what Micheal Talbot seems to think it means. This sort of thing happens all the time when people take the analogies which are used to explain complex concepts, and then stretch them beyond their limits.

As a general tip, real science appears in real scientific journals. Not on crystallinks, of all places...