Unbelievable

[Kepis]

Took my two nephews to one of my fave bushcraft spots today on the back of the Sussex Downs, start walking up the hill and i can hear this thump, thump, thump, thump, thump, start thinking what the heck is that?

Get further up the hill to find a rave in full operation, loud music (i don't mind loud music, but there is a time and place), broken glass all over the place, beer cans and some other highly undesirable rubbish, it's totally destroyed the area, quick call to the local coppers, got a resounding "there is nothing we can do", asked why and if it was a "licensed" rave, only to be told again there was nothing they could do despite receiving numerous calls on the subject - not a happy bunny, call to the council coming up int he morning, it's a popular place and i want to know who is going to clear up all the rubbish (inc needles)

So instead of going where i was planning to go we ended up a little further west and had a great day, bannock, twisters, bacon and bangers on a stick, got the tarp and two hammocks up for the kids, watched a small herd of deer go by and studied the Buzards overhead, took a different route back to the car at the end of the day to avoid the looneys on the top, and was rewarded with just under 4lbs of prime, sweet and juicy cherry plums yum yum yum

 

[RovingArcher]

It is completely repulsive and extremely irritating to me to see and hear how others treat our Mother and ruin an area for everyone.

 

[redcollective]

quick call to the local coppers, got a resounding "there is nothing we can do", asked why and if it was a "licensed" rave, only to be told again there was nothing they could do despite receiving numerous calls on the subject

That's a really weak response from the police. Perhaps they had better things to do. Next time ask the cops to read the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act, Sections 63 64 and 65 and powers relating to raves.

http://www.uk-legislation.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts1994/Ukpga_19940033_en_6.htm

One thing that annoys me is raves are often spun by organisers with the language of earth worship and pseudo pagan rubbish when all they are really doing is getting off their nut in the woods and leaving junk everywhere. These people don't know the meaning of 'nature'.

Glad to see you could salvage your day though maver.

 

[Kepis]

That's a really weak response from the police. Perhaps they had better things to do. Next time ask the cops to read the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act, Sections 63 64 and 65 and powers relating to raves.

Glad to see you could salvage your day though maver.

No disrespect to any coppers onthis forum, but the local lot were probably out nicking motorists for being 1mph over the speed limit, easy targets im afraid, still we had a great time once we got far enough away from yobs in the woods.

Thanks for the link as well, will keep a copy of that safe for future use - just in case

 

[match]

I can think of hundreds of reasons for at least checking it out if I was a policeman:

Illegal substance use/sale
Littering
Rave (as mentioned above)
Environmental damage/damage to property
Breach of the Peace

I suspect it was more of a 'we don't have the resources/desire to try to shift a few hundred people from the middle of nowhere to somewhere else'

 

[Tantalus]

Sad fact is that most of these things are observed on such a regular basis by all of us that they have become quite unimportant

Drugs, loud music, vandalism and litter,

Police just do not have the manpower to deal with this kind of situation

Look around any town centre and see what I mean.

Closing time even in Galashiels (where?) makes the town centre a no go area for hours, despite a fully manned police station, street cameras and bouncers on all the club doors.

Tant

 

[R-Bowskill]

If people need to be out of their head to 'enjoy' themselves then whatever they're doing can't be that much fun really. We get quite a bit of this in Norfolk, either in Thetford forest or around the coast and the police don't do anything most times even when it's happening on a SSSI with bonfires and everything but try doing a bit of bushcraft and out come the riot squad and helecopter because someone's seen 'a man in the wood with a knife / axe / saw / fire (delete as appropriate) even when it's private land with the owners permission.

 

[bambodoggy]

Just to throw a cat in amounst the pigeons.....

Getting off their heads on drugs: Lots of primative peoples do this as part of their tribal life, why would we think white europeans are the only ones not allowed to do it?
If needles really have been left (or was this assumed?) then that is sad but these people need our compasion to recover from their illness, not our condemnation.
In most trance/dance cultures "junkies" and "Vein stabbers", are considered just as out of order as we think they are and they are certainly not the norm. Most ravers if taking drugs will be using Speed, Coke and pills...not that I agree with that but they are harming nobody but themselves and will be leaving no mess from their drug parafenalia.

Dancing round bonefires: See above!

Littering: No excuse but in terms of enviromental damage it's nothing compared to the waste our industry pumps out into our land/water daily. We pay enough in council tax to have the council send in one of it's crews to clean up the day after.

Loud noise: Green-laners (bikes and 4x4's), shotguns, need I say more.....

Hundreds of people in the countryside: As if we the bushcraft community own it! It's not our countryside, it's everybody's. Ramblers will say 4X4's are ruining the countryside, Landowners will say Ramblers are ruining it....the list goes on.

I'm not saying I want to see all these people out "trashing" our countryside but can we all take a quick hop down of our high horses and just leave them too it. I was out last weekend with a few mates camping and doing a spot of crafting and while out we saw the remains of an old "bushcraft camp", the frame of the leaf shelter was still up and hanging off it was a couple of old tires, there was the remains of at least three fires (within 15 feet of each other!!!), there was litter and an old water container laying about, ali-foil stuffed in trees, the remains of an old OG army shirt and to be honest I was a little ashamed. Nobody is whiter than white including the bushcraft community.

If we gave these people somewhere that they could go and have their "raves" in peace then they wouldn't be all over the show....but all we do is move them on...and on...and on....it's pointless. All the mess would be cleared up the day after by a clean up crew paid out of gate admissions.....all parties leave mess (you've only got to see the state of a pub carpet after closing time to know that) so if they were organised better then the clean up would be organised better (Glastonbury is a good example of this and I know several of our members enjoy going there ).

The whole ethos as mentioned below of these things is "peace, love and dancing", and that's all they want to do... if taken in that context can we really be so against it? There is usually very little or no alcohol at these do's and there is never (that I've heard of) any fighting or trouble...the whole place is too "loved up" to fight or course trouble.
I have been to a few of these parties in Goa and unless you have also been then you really haven't a clue what you're talking about. Why not wait to pass judgement until you have actually been to one? You'd also be very suprised at the number of people there dancing the night away that haven't touched any sort of narcotics whatsoever...we just choose to think of ALL of them as "off their heads", because we are ignorant of what really happens there.

Hope I haven't offended anyone with what I've said and seen.

Bam.

 

[Spacemonkey]

Whilst I'm not too keen on litter louts, I have to agree with Bambodoggy on this one. As for the noise, heck, it's only one night, not a constant barrage like I get from my neighbours.

Live and let live I say. But who's gonna clean the mess up?

 

[redcollective]

Don't get me started on cats...

I've some sympathy for what you say Bam, but I do not subscribe to the the collective responsibility thing. In my case I'm not tarring all folk who enjoy dancing outdoors with the same brush (glastonbury is an excellent example of an organised event). But I do believe every individual has choices in life and my choice is to leave little or no trace of my activities if I can. In my own selfish way I just wish everybody else would do the same

I was brought up not far from the australian hippy capital Nimbin, so yes, I do know what this new generation of green toking jugglers get up to.

Ahem, better stop now before I dig a hole for myself.

 

[demographic]

Other than the littering bit I am pretty much of the opinion that Britain in general can be bloody uptight about stuff like this.

If theres a bit of noise every once in a while I don't think it does much harm anyway .
And as for getting off their tits in the woods, errrrrr so what
Or is that only for yogurt weaving old hippies?
I think that you will find that people have been getting off their tits in the woods for thousands of years, sometimes even (shock horror) to rhythmic beats

Live and let live, although I am far less impressed by the littering aspect of it

 

[Kepis]

Whilst I'm not too keen on litter louts, I have to agree with Bambodoggy on this one. As for the noise, heck, it's only one night, not a constant barrage like I get from my neighbours.

But who's gonna clean the mess up?

Spoke with the local council today, apparently this rave started on Friday evening and was still going this morning, they have received so many complaints apparently they have had to dedicate two staff to matter in order to address it, the council have also registered a formal complaint with the local coppers as well as, im told, writing to the Chief Constable for Sussex.

I was also told that the local farmer was absolutely incensed by the affair, but because of the "type" of people involved he stayed away and also tried to get the police involved, but like the rest of us had no joy, im am told "by the council" that they will be assisting the farmer in errecting a series of obstacles on the pathways leading to the site, in order to stop vehicle access ( i suppose the farmer will go cross country, but what's to stop the yobs doing the same?, i asked, i got no reply), the council are also sending a clean up team to the site tomorrow to pick up and dispose of, and i quote:

Beer cans
Broken Glass
Needles and associated items
Condoms
Human body waste

The woman at the council i spoke with had obviously had so many calls on this by mid morning, she just rattled the list off, she sugested i could write a letter of complaint to my local MP, told her i already had.


To quote Bam " The whole ethos as mentioned below of these things is "peace, love and dancing", and that's all they want to do... if taken in that context can we really be so against it? " no i suppose not, but this place was not very peaceful at all, well IMO anyway, some the guys and indeed gals there were intimidating to say the least, even more so when you have two young kids with you, which is why we left pronto.

"There is usually very little or no alcohol at these do's and there is never (that I've heard of) any fighting or trouble...the whole place is too "loved up" to fight or course trouble.", this one must be an exception to the rule, beer cans and bottles everywhere, im not disagreeing with Bam, most of these raves are peaceful and loved up, just not this one unfortunately

Bam, no offence taken with your post on my account, hope my reply does not offend , i see it this way, this is an open forum, where members can put their viewpoint across, i think they call it "Debate"

Dont get me wrong, i have nothing against people going out and having a good time, we all do it, and as Bam quite rightly points out the countryside is there for everyone's enjoyment, but what i do object to is the state the place was in, the open use of drugs and the absolute desicration of a wonderful bit of woodland, that and the attitude of the local coppers, who basically, it would appear, could not give a stuff

Right rant over - sorry chaps, but this shambles at the weekend really made my blood boil.

 

[bloodline]

Similar thing happened to me a couple of weekends ago. Lets take the dog out I said to her indoors Challock forest will be nice , so of we went 35 minutes later we got there as I was approaching the car park I was forced up a grass bank by a pair of unwashed pieces of filth in a converted bus (left over from some eightys peace convoy)when we got into the car park we could here loud badly ampliphidede music coming from the heart of the woods and came across numerous people smelling of herbal cigarettes and general personal neglect If you or I practiced our craft in this manner we would be moved on by the ranger and the local council but this disruptive and disructive gathering was allowed to carry on What is happening ? should we all do our own thing regardless of the countryside I know im getting on and have started to rant a bit but that unwashed gang of drugged up filth have done ten years worth of damage to a beauty spot

 

[Swampy Steve]

Quote" Most ravers if taking drugs will be using Speed, Coke and pills...not that I agree with that but they are harming nobody but themselves and will be leaving no mess from their drug parafenalia."

I'm afraid that the above statement is in reality the complete opposite to a drug user's effect on other people. I manage a nightclub and have to deal with drug related incidents most nights of the week. Firstly they do leave a mess, mostly vomit, pill bags & tin foil. Secondly, they certainly harm others as all the "free love" goes out the window when they get pilled up and lose all sense of reality.
As a "for instance" only a few nights ago a male in his early twenties caused havoc in the club after taking Speed. He punched a girl who didn't want to talk to him, ripped a Door Supervisor's ear lobe when he asked "is there a problem" and then broke his own nose when he tried to jump through a toughened glass window. The police had to be called, who then called an ambulance who took him to hospital with a police escort. Later at the hospital he ran out of A&E whilst still being attatched to one of their machines and was detained in the car park by hospital security. Look at the number of people involved in dealing with this person and the cost to various services and you can see the knock on effect.
Ironically, two nights later this same person returned to the club and was totally bewildered when he was refused entry !
I am not arguing with all the points raised but drug users can and do affect many of us.
As an add on, we have a nil tolerance to drugs use and have random drug searches on entry and limited use of a sniffer dog. That said there is no way of totally preventing drugs coming into any club, pub or disco/dance/music event.

 

[Kirruth]

Well, I think the whole story shows the people involved in such actions have a total lack of respect. If they'd got the land owners permission and cleared up after themselves, well, that would be different.

 

[Doc]

I see and treat heroin addicts every week. They do need compassion but they also need very firm boundaries. Many (not all) have had very poor parenting and don't really have a concept of what is and is not acceptable. So we get them to sign a contract that spells out exactly what we expect them to do and not do. If they break it we either stop the methadone or throw them off the list. It works well.


If addicts leave used needles around the consequences could be really dreadful - someones child dying from HIV or hepatitis C. This isn't acceptable behaviour, and anyone doing this really needs to be shown that it's not acceptable. People really ought to go to jail for that sort of littering.

Amphetamines can cause amphetamine psychosis - an illness indistinguishable from schizophrenia. The costs to the individual and society can be great.

 

[bambodoggy]

Hey All,

Wow, it seems my posting had the effect I was after, it stopped the bandwagon monotone condemnation and has brought forth a much more balanced debate....smashing!

As I said in my first post there isn't an excuse for littering and leaving the site as they obviously have. I haven't been to this site and seen the state they left it so I am maybe in more of a mood to forgive, I have to suspect that had I been in Maver's shoes I'd most likely be as cross about the whole thing as he was.

It's sad to hear that these events have degenerated into boozed up orgies of human filth, they certainly never used to be (although as I also said there will always be a mess left behind after a party). It would appear that this really wasn't the time or place for this type of event and my sympathy goes to the farmer for the damage caused to his property.
My point about somewhere to do this still stands though, as stated organised events such as Glastonbury work very well and maybe if there was more sites available for people to do this then there would be less need to hold these illegal raves. Imagine the Wilderness Gathering being the only organised bushcraft event and the only time we could practice bushcraft (in the same way as the ravers only event could be Glastonbury), wouldn't we want to sneak into the local woods to practice our craft? I appreciate that most of us would leave less mess and that in reality Glastonbury isn't the only event of it's type but I'm sure you get the idea I'm hinting at

Swappy, I take your point onboard fully and was, I guess, a little simplistic in my appraisal of their drug taking. I'm not condoning drugs in any shape or form but I'd guess that you have a lot more in the way of problems from people that have been drinking. Some city centres in the UK have become almost no go zones on a friday and saturday night, there are booze fuelled fights, drunk drivers, drunken vomiting and alcoholic poisoning happening everyday of the week. Each year alcohol kills more people than Crack, Heroin and Cocaine combined and yet there are many threads on here about the joys of homebrew and bushcraft booze. I understand that on mass the bushcraft community are generally a more sensible lot but I'm just wondering why we choose to trust one drug and not the other?

I do generally have a live and let live approach to life and it's nice to see that on the whole so do most other members on here. It is sad (and very very wrong) to see a beautiful area of our countryside trashed in this way so please don't think I'm saying it is ok for these people to do this, all I'm saying is that there are worse things to worry about and that if given a place to play then I think that these events could be much less destructive.
I'm also asking that we don't tar all these people with the "druggy" tar brush as I don't think a lot of them will be....we don't like it when Joe Public tars all of us bushcrafters with the "Johny Rambo wannabe" label either do we?

It's good to hear a debate like this and proof that as bushcrafters we are able to stand back a little and look at the whole picture in the way an experienced tracker might while on a trail, rather than diving in and staring at a single print and wondering why we cannot understand the whole animal from this one little track

Finally I am also very sorry that Maver had his weekend marred by this and I do hope it hasn't put off the nippers he had with him from further jaunts into the woods, that would truly be a tragedy.

Cheers for an interestnig read everyone

Bam.

 

[bambodoggy]

I see and treat heroin addicts every week. They do need compassion but they also need very firm boundaries. Many (not all) have had very poor parenting and don't really have a concept of what is and is not acceptable. So we get them to sign a contract that spells out exactly what we expect them to do and not do. If they break it we either stop the methadone or throw them off the list. It works well.


If addicts leave used needles around the consequences could be really dreadful - someones child dying from HIV or hepatitis C. This isn't acceptable behaviour, and anyone doing this really needs to be shown that it's not acceptable. People really ought to go to jail for that sort of littering.

Amphetamines can cause amphetamine psychosis - an illness indistinguishable from schizophrenia. The costs to the individual and society can be great.

Can't argue with any of that Doc Out of interest do you agree in principle in what I have said about booze being just as if not more destructive? You must see a lot of the bad outcomes from drinking in your line of work

 

[Kepis]

Hey All,


Finally I am also very sorry that Maver had his weekend marred by this and I do hope it hasn't put off the nippers he had with him from further jaunts into the woods, that would truly be a tragedy.

Cheers for an interestnig read everyone

Bam.

Must admit i was surprised by the comment the kids made, they were saying that we should go and have a word with them and tell them to clear their rubbish up, the youngest one (6 yrs) even said that when we leave the woods it looks like nobody has been there and said he hoped this lot would clear their rubbish up, looks like my teachings have gotten through - hooray.

Still as i mentioned in my original post, we just left them to it and walked further west and had a great day in the woods, all i get now is "when can we go camping again?", they really enjoy it and this one instance has not put them off at all, as their mum said "life is full of idoits" to which the youngest one replied, and i quote "........and prats", nearly spilt my rosehip tea when i heard that

 

[BorderReiver]

Can't argue with any of that Doc Out of interest do you agree in principle in what I have said about booze being just as if not more destructive? You must see a lot of the bad outcomes from drinking in your line of work

Like everything else in life it's not the article or substance that's at fault,it's us humans.

All societies have had/have drugs of some form for religious or recreational purposes.

The trick is to find some way of educating our society to tell the differance between the "safe" drugs and the more harmful ones and to use them sensibly.

On the subject of raves,there are huge areas of abandoned military and industrial
land where the kids could be as noisy as they liked.Maybe the local authorities could designate suitable areas for use.

I take it these events are not free and that someone is making a lot of money out of them.Perhaps the police might consider arresting these guys and confiscating their gear,including vehicles.The best way IMO is the designated area approach.