The best quality light sleeping system for -20°C

[Andy BB]

The weight issue is very interesting when you look at it more. THe down bag I have - the Valandre Lhotse 1100 http://roberts.pl/index.php?l=en&p=_katalog&i=_lhotse (now superceded by later versions - see above) has no zip yet still weighs approx. 2kg - just over 4lb. The claimed temp range is comfort - -35c, extreme -49c. (possibly a bit optimistic imho, and these temps are assuming wearing arctic-grade down clothes inside it) However, clearly well-liked by Everest expeditions etc.

THe Wiggys bag which approximates to those temps is the Ultima THule (based on my experiences wearing just a base layer in their bags and matching their suggested temp ranges, so Comfort in just base layers at -29C). (THe Wiggys Superlight says temp of 0F = -18C, and I've slept in mine at -20C, again in base layer only) The Ultima Thule weighs 5lbs. So for the total weight disadvantage of 1lb - 450grams - you get all the advantages of a synthetic bag - warm when wet, pass-through of sweat/water vapour onto the outer skin etc.

The main difference is compression. The Valandre packs down into an incredibly small size - the Wiggys ...doesn't! But I sometimes think that the "weight" disadvantage of synthetic bags is massively overstated........

 

[peter_]

IMHO, they are much the same quality. I'd add Montbell to that list too.

Thanks, I will check them!

 

[peter_]

The weight issue is very interesting when you look at it more. THe down bag I have - the Valandre Lhotse 1100 http://roberts.pl/index.php?l=en&p=_katalog&i=_lhotse (now superceded by later versions - see above) has no zip yet still weighs approx. 2kg - just over 4lb. The claimed temp range is comfort - -35c, extreme -49c. (possibly a bit optimistic imho, and these temps are assuming wearing arctic-grade down clothes inside it) However, clearly well-liked by Everest expeditions etc.

THe Wiggys bag which approximates to those temps is the Ultima THule (based on my experiences wearing just a base layer in their bags and matching their suggested temp ranges, so Comfort in just base layers at -29C). (THe Wiggys Superlight says temp of 0F = -18C, and I've slept in mine at -20C, again in base layer only) The Ultima Thule weighs 5lbs. So for the total weight disadvantage of 1lb - 450grams - you get all the advantages of a synthetic bag - warm when wet, pass-through of sweat/water vapour onto the outer skin etc.

The main difference is compression. The Valandre packs down into an incredibly small size - the Wiggys ...doesn't! But I sometimes think that the "weight" disadvantage of synthetic bags is massively overstated........

Thanks for explanation... I think as you probably... It is not big differences in weight only in volume. But with wiggy's bag I have more versatile and secure bag for outdoors... I don't have to worry about wetness or condensation in the bag or out of the bag... Only thing which I must to change is rucksack Wit such bag, ground pad and other winter gear only packs with 100-120lit volume will be optimal for all that equipment

Tell me please which bag is better for about -20°C:
Ultima Thule or Super light with over bag...?

 

[Andy BB]

Thanks for explanation... I think as you probably... It is not big differences in weight only in volume. But with wiggy's bag I have more versatile and secure bag for outdoors... I don't have to worry about wetness or condensation in the bag or out of the bag... Only thing which I must to change is rucksack Wit such bag, ground pad and other winter gear only packs with 100-120lit volume will be optimal for all that equipment

Tell me please which bag is better for about -20°C:
Ultima Thule or Super light with over bag...?

Difficult question! If weight is a priority, then the Ultima Thule is lighter than the two bags (superlight + overbag). Both options will give similar warmth. THe main advantage of the two-bag system is its flexibility, disadvantage weight. I use the overbag in the summer, the Superlight for autumn/ spring, and combined for serious sub-zero temps. I have also used the Ultima Thule for early spring and late autumn, as well as serious sub-zero temps. If I knew I was going to be going to -20C or lower, I'd probably now just take the Ultima Thule. It is important to ensure you have a good insulated pad underneath you, and I note that you're using an Exped Down 9 - great choice (it's what I use now in the cold)

One other point is size - I went for the long/wide on all three bags, and haven't regretted it. The extra length means you can put your clothes in the foot of the bag to keep them warm or dry them out, and still have plenty of room for yourself. The pillow that comes free with the bags is brilliant, by the way - by far the most comfortable camping pillow I've ever used, and well worth packing even if it does take up a bit of space!

 

[peter_]

Difficult question! If weight is a priority, then the Ultima Thule is lighter than the two bags (superlight + overbag). Both options will give similar warmth. THe main advantage of the two-bag system is its flexibility, disadvantage weight. I use the overbag in the summer, the Superlight for autumn/ spring, and combined for serious sub-zero temps. I have also used the Ultima Thule for early spring and late autumn, as well as serious sub-zero temps. If I knew I was going to be going to -20C or lower, I'd probably now just take the Ultima Thule. It is important to ensure you have a good insulated pad underneath you, and I note that you're using an Exped Down 9 - great choice (it's what I use now in the cold)

One other point is size - I went for the long/wide on all three bags, and haven't regretted it. The extra length means you can put your clothes in the foot of the bag to keep them warm or dry them out, and still have plenty of room for yourself. The pillow that comes free with the bags is brilliant, by the way - by far the most comfortable camping pillow I've ever used, and well worth packing even if it does take up a bit of space!

I think that light weight backpacking is for me a little bit different thing from most common meaning. I think that 20-30 kilos backpack is not a problem on shorter distances even in the snowy conditions... Problem is terrain which is all mountainous and I can't go there with a sled. It will be in my opinion much less harder if I go with backpack. Only thing with these sleeping bags is volume, but like I said for that you need a bigger rucksack... Probably something with main department of 100lit will be fine... I must recheck my backpack options... Even for a few day trip with all that sleeping gear, tipi tent, stove, ax, bow saw, clothing, cooking gear, etc. it will be plenty of gear to carry.

OK, than Ultima Thule is better choice because two bags will be occupy to much space in rucksack... Thanks for advice about bag size... very good extra option... Only thing is worried me is that, to much wide bag and possible coldness because of that... Great for the pillow, this little thing is very important to me and my sleeping comfort

 

[Teepee]

Be aware Peter that these wiggy bags don't pack down small. They do compress a long way and the compresssion sack provided has the guts but they still take up a good volume.

 

[peter_]

Be aware Peter that these wiggy bags don't pack down small. They do compress a long way and the compresssion sack provided has the guts but they still take up a good volume.

I know, but you can't have such properties in little bag... It is hard to get all and to sacrifice nothing... Down bags are warm, light and compress small. Also quality down bags will last for years... But in extreme situations, if they happens, synthetic bags are superior... Especially with climashield of this type, I think it is combat or prism type of climashield. Very superior material in terms of hard using and insulation even when is wet...

 

[Teepee]

I know, but you can't have such properties in little bag... It is hard to get all and to sacrifice nothing... Down bags are warm, light and compress small. Also quality down bags will last for years... But in extreme situations, if they happens, synthetic bags are superior... Especially with climashield of this type, I think it is combat or prism type of climashield. Very superior material in terms of hard using and insulation even when is wet...

Thos extreme situations is where the Wiggys gets picked over down for me. No need for a vapour barrier or even worrying about airing the bag. I just throw a nalgene full of boiling water in the bag and it'll evaporate out any residual moisture. A real boon for drying boot inners and socks in the bag-something thats much riskier to do long term in a down bag.

Yes, it's one of those Climashield types. Mr Wigatow doesn't say specifically.

It's surprising stuff to try and wash. Takes about 30 mins of constant work to submerge the bag in the bath(Ultima thule) , it really doesn't like being wet. If I let go of it, it'll spring back to the surface, drain it's water and then it's another fight to get it submerged. Once saturated, it'll drain completely in 15 mins and feels instantly warm.

 

[Squidders]

I have a Mountain Hardwear Big Bang SL sleeping bag... They don't make this model any more and because of that I got mine ex display for £100.

It is the warmest sleeping bag I have ever been in and I have yet to spend a night in it where I didn't have to unzip it to cool down. I like MH quality, they have been pulled into highstreet fashion less than some brands and still have very good functional standards.

 

[peter_]

Thos extreme situations is where the Wiggys gets picked over down for me. No need for a vapour barrier or even worrying about airing the bag. I just throw a nalgene full of boiling water in the bag and it'll evaporate out any residual moisture. A real boon for drying boot inners and socks in the bag-something thats much riskier to do long term in a down bag.

Yes, it's one of those Climashield types. Mr Wigatow doesn't say specifically.

It's surprising stuff to try and wash. Takes about 30 mins of constant work to submerge the bag in the bath(Ultima thule) , it really doesn't like being wet. If I let go of it, it'll spring back to the surface, drain it's water and then it's another fight to get it submerged. Once saturated, it'll drain completely in 15 mins and feels instantly warm.

Well, after this post how can not to buy such bag? I think that only two types of climashield insulation have such properties which we can see in wiggy's bags... combat and prism...

 

[BigX]

Sorry to be late to this party, you may have already pulled the trigger on your sleeping system. Just a couple of points if you haven't: R3XXY suggested the Ray Mears Golden Eagle, but the RM Canada Jay is only a few quid more expensive and has a comfort rating down to -35C. I took this to the Arctic last year because it had the lowest rating I could find without going into real Antarctic expedition territory (i.e. three times the price!). My concern is that if you're anywhere it's likely to be -20C, it will be the sort of place it can quickly become a LOT colder without warning. It would be safer to err on the side of caution.

(I also second the point that -20C is mostly a very dry environment, and that the majority of moisture you're likely to encounter will be coming from you).

The Canada Jay however - and any synthetic bag - is BIG, which brings me to: the XL Sea To Summit Event compression sack, which works miracles on bulky sleeping bags. Seal it up like a dry-bag, then slowly squeeze the air out through a one-way waterproof membrane. Seriously, it's very impressive and would be a good idea whichever way you decide to go.

 

[Teepee]

Sorry to be late to this party, you may have already pulled the trigger on your sleeping system. Just a couple of points if you haven't: R3XXY suggested the Ray Mears Golden Eagle, but the RM Canada Jay is only a few quid more expensive and has a comfort rating down to -35C. I took this to the Arctic last year because it had the lowest rating I could find without going into real Antarctic expedition territory (i.e. three times the price!). My concern is that if you're anywhere it's likely to be -20C, it will be the sort of place it can quickly become a LOT colder without warning. It would be safer to err on the side of caution.

(I also second the point that -20C is mostly a very dry environment, and that the majority of moisture you're likely to encounter will be coming from you).

The Canada Jay however - and any synthetic bag - is BIG, which brings me to: the XL Sea To Summit Event compression sack, which works miracles on bulky sleeping bags. Seal it up like a dry-bag, then slowly squeeze the air out through a one-way waterproof membrane. Seriously, it's very impressive and would be a good idea whichever way you decide to go.

Hi Big X The Wiggy's Thule has the same insulation on the top as the Wiggys Antarctic bag, only difference is the bottom which is half as thick at around 3-4". The top is around 6-7" thick. I don't know how this compares to the Jay? Thickness isn't listed and Nanok have now been bought out by Activebrands in Norway.

I sleep warm bit I have used the bag down to -40 odd without issue. I really have to watch overheating problems above -10c, often leave the zip open or use it as a quilt to reduce the thickness.

 

[BigX]

SEVEN inches thick?!! Damn! How do you get the thing into a car, let alone a rucksack?

The Canada Jay is nowhere near that thick - 3-4 inches all round, I'd guess. It is still pretty warm and I'd definitely only use it for Arctic conditions. I use a Kelty down bag (with a Thermarest NeoAir XTherm) for the British winter.

 

[peter_]

Sorry to be late to this party, you may have already pulled the trigger on your sleeping system.

No, I'm still collecting information's about all gear which I need. When I finish that, I will start with buying all that at once... I need some tools for woods, rucksack, sleeping system, etc. Thanks for advice and sounds good!

 

[BigX]

Where ARE you going, Peter? You mentioned mountains and woods and not being able to pull a sled....so - are you going to the top of mountains? Camping on the side of mountains? Crossing open spaces, etc?

I just ask because obviously -20C in sheltered woods is quite different from -20C on an exposed peak.

 

[peter_]

Where ARE you going, Peter? You mentioned mountains and woods and not being able to pull a sled....so - are you going to the top of mountains? Camping on the side of mountains? Crossing open spaces, etc?

I just ask because obviously -20C in sheltered woods is quite different from -20C on an exposed peak.

Sorry for delayed reply. No, this will be hilly terrain but not any serious mountains... Just camping on the side of some hill... or besides forest... But if winter continues with present weather, I think that in my area we not see any serious snowing condition...

 

[Old Bones]

But because of bulkiness or weight it is not popular among ultralight or light backpackers. This is something what I noticed about this bags on what others said about them...

Its horses for courses. As you rightly point out, the military, etc tend to use them because they tend to be better when wet (although the idea that down is a disaster when even slightly damp seems more a meme than actual truth), can be compressed for a long time, etc. And that they tend to be cheaper, which, if your the military, is certainly a winning point.

On the other hand, I'm not that far off fifty, have a dodgy back, and have no intention of carrying a huge heavy bag, which then has to go into another huge heavy bag. You can have it cheap, you can have it light, and you can have it durable/effective. Choose any two. And thats why you can can't get a minus 20 degree bag which weighs 1.5kg or less that costs less than a small car. However, down is much cheaper, relatively speaking, than it was 20 years ago. There is still about a £100 cliff between the two fillings in terms of price for performance, but you can do pretty well for less than £200 if you shop around.

Quixoticgeek - you can design your own bag at PHD. I put the specs you wanted in, and at a min temp of minus 24, you were looking at 1.25kg, but £585! You gets what you pay for...which is the GDP of somewhere!

 

[peter_]

Quixoticgeek - you can design your own bag at PHD. I put the specs you wanted in, and at a min temp of minus 24, you were looking at 1.25kg, but £585! You gets what you pay for...which is the GDP of somewhere!

Yes I know that In the end winter in my area was poor and nothing happened with my winter hot tent camping. On the bags, in the end for my needs and terrain for backpacking, down bag and lighter gear is option to go... You can't walk on such hilly terrain with enormous pack on your back...